E054 - Learning Spanish and Social Integration as an Expat Finding Community and Deep Friendships

James Doran (00:06.136)

So hello and welcome to The Expat Pod my name is James, your host, and today I'm joined by Mary Martha, who we met, think via Instagram or threads or some social media. Well, one of the many social media that exists out there now, but I think we are in the same kind of industry or in niche, I suppose is the term for it. And I think we just got in contact and I invite you to be a guest on the podcast and you graciously accepted.

Thank you for that. And if you'd like to share a bit about you and where you've lived and where you're from, that would be wonderful. Yeah. I'm happy to be here and glad that social media brought us together. So I'm Mary Martha. I'm from Milwaukee, Wisconsin in the US. I moved to Chile, Santiago, Chile, specifically in South America in 2016. And I've been here ever since. And I'm currently, I'm a life coach for ExPaths.

Well, what a great direction and hopefully someone who are listeners will see a lot of advice from.

James Doran (01:12.598)

Welcome to section one of the podcast about getting there. So Mary Martha, this is where I kind of asked my guests about their inspiration for traveling or living abroad. what was the kind of origin story of our travelers or expats, if you would, what it spurred you on and how you manifested it to all the work you need to find, whether it was an international assignment for work or studying or getting visas and things.

I guess if we start with the why, so why did you want to spend time abroad? Yeah, that's a great question. I've always wanted to learn Spanish, so that was my why. And the easier way would have been probably studying and putting more effort into learning at school, but that wasn't really how I learned language. I was actually really bad at that. And so I got the idea in my head that it would be easier to learn Spanish after I graduated college, university.

and spending at least like a year abroad in a Spanish speaking country. so my why was really apart from like experiencing kind of, think the typical adventure after college between settling down, wanting to kind of see more of the world, but also I really wanted to learn Spanish. Okay. And with that kind of want to learn Spanish, did you then choose any Spanish country? it, you know, Europe or South America or South America, your main kind of

goal to live there? Yeah, that's a great question because it really wasn't. The first goal was Spain. I think I thought of Spain because a lot of people think of Spain as just a cool place to go. But I ended up choosing Chile because I have a family friend who lived in Chile. She was a did a study abroad program and then she met her at the time Chilean boyfriend came back in Chile. And so when she was

coming back to the US to do her master's program, I was with this idea of I want to go live in a Spanish speaking country. But that was kind of my criteria. And my mom actually suggested, why don't you meet with this person? just like, instead of, know, be open to this thing and open to this idea too, just because she's been there, she knows some people there. And at the time, just to kind of get my mom off my back, I was like, okay, I'll meet with her. And it ended up.

James Doran (03:36.204)

being like a no brainer. She just really convinced me and it felt a little bit more logical to choose a place that at least I knew one person which was her boyfriend at the time. good networking choices then for you, I suppose, was to find that person and then open that door. Yeah, it kind of felt like, let's feel a little bit less. What were you going for? What was the kind of process for getting across? you have to do a visa? Did you have to do a language test? Or was it, guess you got a tourist visa, maybe not. Yeah.

Well, that's a great question. With this all respected, now it's quite different, but in 2016, I was allowed to have enter this country with a tourist visa and then apply once I had like a promise to work. I actually got certified to teach English. That was what something that I needed in order to be able to teach English in Chile. I chose teaching English because it felt like the most flexible and if I didn't

like Chile, it was easy, quite easy to be able to move somewhere else and teach English. So I needed to get the certificate in teaching English and then for the visa at the time I was able to enter with a tourist visa. But I, within those 90 days had to apply for my temporary work visa. So most of that was done in Chile, but there was some of that which was done with like the Chilean consulate, some paperwork, but most of it was done in Chile.

which was a stressful experience because I didn't really speak Spanish. I'm sure we'll get into that in the next section, but kind of going with the being certified as teaching, did you start that kind of process back in the US then? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I chose a program to get certified and I got certified and it was all online, which was great.

I guess I'll get into the next part. It had some downsides to actually doing the experience, but it was a very friendly experience for people who do want to move abroad. think getting certified to teach English is a pretty safe option. are there many companies you can use for the Cesar vacation? Yeah, it was very smooth. And then in terms of your kind of living ranges, when you were before you left, did you finish college and move back home for a bit? And then kind of

James Doran (06:02.87)

not having to out rents, out furniture, sort out storage. Exactly, yeah. You know how it goes. That's exactly what I did. I was really grateful. I'm fortunate to have been able to have my mom to been able to live with her. And that was something I worked as a server, as a waitress during college. And so I kept that job that I during college and just worked and saved money. So that was really an important.

of being able to make the move was one being able to not pay rent for a while and being able to save money to have during the months to a year. you did you try and learn any Spanish before leaving in terms of were you Germanized long duolingo streak or did you have a tutor or was there anything you did before? I would love to say yes, because it would be something I would maybe recommend now, but I really didn't I think I was 24.

When I arrived at Chile, think 23 when I made the decision to like make the move. I maybe contributed to a little bit of youth of just being like, how are you to be? I'm just going to go and do it. So I wasn't really focused on that, which is kind of ironic. But no, I didn't think about the Spanish part. know that's that's fair enough. And that's what

Youth and naivety do go hand in hand, I think, in that sense as well. It'll work itself out. I don't need to do any work. Now, having said that, I'm young. And were any of your friends doing something similar? Were you kind of a big outlier in your circle of friends? That's a great question. You know, I would say no, actually. No one was doing something similar. I was definitely an outlier, which I find interesting now that it's becoming a lot more popular with young people and more common than I saw that it was eight years ago.

But at that time, a lot of my friends were professionally advancing a little bit quicker than maybe was in this path of going to a bar, teaching English and valuing the experience and it's kind of unconventional path was not, I didn't know anyone within my friend group or really close to me who was doing it. It's really interesting to see as well. You've kind of been the pioneer within your own kind of the diagram of people that you know.

James Doran (08:20.634)

which is really interesting to think about because yeah, if you have to, it's hard to have that kind of inspiration or that guidance from someone who appears, if you have to kind of be the one who does that. Obviously you have your friends, boyfriend at the time who was, was helpful. but still it's a, it's a quite, quite a scary jump. I'm I'm lucky to have the friend, the family friend. She was very like supportive and transparent open.

think that gave me some security that I knew her before she walked abroad and I trusted what she told me. But yeah, it wasn't necessarily aside from her. I didn't know anyone else who had done it. then accommodation wise before you moved, did you have somewhere to stay or had you got like a short term thing until you found somewhere for the year? Yeah, I stayed with my the friends, boyfriends at the times, him and his family for like the first three nights.

was definitely a cultural shock and that was when I realized, I don't, everyone speaks Spanish, like, and I don't speak any Spanish. And then after that, I moved to a hostel that the friend actually said, I liked this hostel when I was there. And I think I stayed there for like a few weeks and while I was looking for more permanent housing. So the first month was, yeah, it was not the most secure as in housing because it was like just for pretty much about

three and a half weeks. Wow. think that's quite an adventure to begin with, which is always useful. And then was there anything else you tried to take off before you left your home country? Was there anything else you wanted to? I think at the time that I left, in my mind, I was definitely going for a max 12 months. So because I was kind of a fresh college graduate, it's not like I had investments. That's something that I know now, for example.

If anyone has actual investments and any type of formal investments, you actually have to stop that before you move abroad. think depending on the phase of your life, there's a lot more things to tie up. So I know that my experience might not apply, but in my experience at that time, I was so unattached and I didn't have, I got rid of all of my clothes. I arrived with a couple of suitcases and I...

James Doran (10:47.394)

That was, guess, the advantage to going at the time that I want that there wasn't as much to tie up. But I just mentioned that because I understand that if people are going at a different place in their life financially or home -wise or homeowners or career, I think that that could be a lot more bureaucratic than my experience was.

Yeah, did you have to also alert the tax authorities in America? You get taxed in both as an American abroad, you get taxed in America, right? So is that to be answered to let them know you're leaving or? yeah, you definitely don't like if you make under a certain amount of income and to have an agreement that you don't have to pay double. I think you only pay double after like a certain six figure after over a certain six figure amount. So

That was okay. You just have to file, but then it's like... After a lot of money basically. Yeah, have to get it. Well, an income I wasn't making then, so I wasn't... I think I also, yeah, when you go back to what you said about that youth, I was just like, let's go, let's do it. And just the time of my life, there wasn't as much of that, but you do have to file your taxes in the US and in Chile because they just need a record. But unless you make a certain income, then you don't pay it in both places.

Wonderful. Well, I think we can probably go into section two about your time actually being in Chile.

James Doran (12:18.136)

So welcome back to the podcast and welcome section two all about being there. So Mary Martha, this is where my guests kind of give their own kind of initial first impressions or new place. Get to know a lot about what life is like being in a new culture or a new environment. So if we kind of go back to your first day, so you kind of know where you're going to some extent, you landed at airport. What was your expectation and what was the reality and how did it differ? Yeah, that's a great question. I love that you asked that.

I still remember like the plane, you know when the plane, the pilot says like, we're landing in 15 minutes or la, la, la, la. And I remember like, I can go back to that feeling of just somehow it set in that like when I got off the plane, people are going to be speaking in Spanish. So I think it was just such a big jump that up until that point, I hadn't really mentalized the level of change. So from when I got off the plane and then the friend's boyfriend at the time picked me up.

it was kind of like a blur, I would say, because it was just such a shock that something as simple. mean, I know it's a reason why I came, but I think links of like listening, everyone talking in a language that you just don't understand is kind of wild. that was different San Thiago Chile, just speaking of landscape, that's surrounded by the Andes mountains, Milwaukee, Wisconsin is very full at. just even just the landscape, like I didn't, I was definitely not in like Kansas anymore. Like I'm not.

at home anymore. It was kind of one of those moments and I stayed immediately with a family so I'm just not even really around young people kind of. I mean he had some siblings and they were so gracious, so kind to me and showed me around. They were like, okay, let's get you a SIM card for phone. Like they helped me get a metro card and where I'm from there's no metro station. It's just buses. It's smaller. It was all a shock. I think just being somewhere so different, being in a big city, everyone's speaking Spanish.

And just also people looking at you like the foreigner like, they want to know about you. But then there's that communication kind of difference. And it, it definitely was like a weird, like, wow, what did I get myself into kind of experience? Wow. Yeah, that must be. It's quite, it's boggling is probably the word. Disorientating is probably a better term where you just

James Doran (14:42.028)

you're you know which way north is anymore you kind of completely lost your bearings because you're there's no familiarity exposed because it's not fixed in the same language as you are and even you just really go to the supermarket and you see nothing that's familiar as well maybe coke is on my dogs are there but nothing else is this yes yeah yeah you nailed it it's exactly like that and those are the things that i don't really know can be mentally prepared for because we have no idea how different a place is going to be until something that you just thought

was going to be there because your mind only knew what you knew all of a sudden it's so different. Like losing your footing exactly. That's kind of how it was like, whoa, this is different. So you spent the three days with your kind of family, family. Then you went to your youth hostel. Were you there? Did you have a private room? Did you have a kind of shared room with other people? What was that situation like?

I believe I had a shared room. I want to say had a shared room. Was a little too stingy to splurge at that point, you 24 year old, like, I'm just going to get a shared room and just rough it. I'd had a shared room and I spent a lot of time just think within those first few days, like walk, cause I didn't really have a job yet. I also, I'll get into that later, but I had to still interview for jobs. So just walking around kind of where I was and just exploring, I was lucky to have

introduced from the friend back home, like some people that she met, she put me in contact with some other American girls and they were really sweet to like be able to meet with me. And I remember like within the first week we met up and I was like, I felt a little bit more relief, like meeting people who kind of understood exactly what I was going through and, and just kind of helped kind of provide a little bit of comfort kind of coming from the same country, living the same experience.

So that was really nice. But during the first three days in the hostel, was kind of just killing time. So I was just walking around, of just like taking everything in. there other people in the hostel you were hanging out with? other people who were traveling by or staying there? Yeah, I remember like chatting with lot of people in the hostel. It was definitely a backpacker kind of hostel. lot of people were just traveling through it really. So I do remember, you know,

James Doran (17:06.424)

chatting with them and hanging a little bit at the hostel. But most people like kind of had their plans and were just stopping by in Chile and Santiago for one night and going to interesting place in Chile to like backpack and hike and stuff. But yeah, that also was really interesting. Just meeting a lot of people who were just kind of backpacking and traveling. But yeah, we're kind of there for different reasons. The people you met who were also US, then was quite nice because like being in a country or culture.

where it's very tiring to live in another language, whether it's reading it daily, hearing it daily, you probably have that, you lose the subconscious communication which you get from speaking another tongue or something you're fluent in, which must have been quite a nice change for you then when you were able to talk to these people who were also living in Santiago but spoke English as a native language, that must have been quite nice.

way to know I can actually articulate myself in a certain way to ask the questions I want to ask. I know they'll understand it and give me the answer that I need rather than spending half an hour, you know, circling around the question. it was really validating to just to like exactly what you said you don't when there's not the language when there's not the language kind of there to communicate and when a person hasn't lived the experience, it's kind of hard to like, describe but because they all had been through it.

it would they were really, really kind of really validating and it felt really good to be like, okay. And like, this isn't just me, you know, everyone kind of goes through this and they kind of took me under their wing and, and show me around. So that was really, that was really nice to meet, those people. then you said in the kind of first few months you had to do your visa.

I guess were you still at this point getting certified for teaching? No, I had, I finished the certification. I had found an English teaching job. The friend that I had back in the U S had made a connection with the old English teaching job. And I went in for an interview and got that. And I had started teaching and the teaching here wasn't like in a classroom for a young primary school or kids. was.

James Doran (19:22.004)

of a one -on -one or small group classes for all ages like six years old to seven years old but most of it was like adult kind of English classes so we would myself and other people work there would travel to someone's office or to their home but all hours of the day and teach the English classes so yeah I was has started the visa process but the beginning of the visa starting isn't that complicating because you just I mean it is you send it

For me, was when things didn't go as planned and when it wasn't like a smooth, okay, yes, it's like, we're missing this or there's a miscommunication, there's So yeah, at that point I had applied for the visa, it sent it in and I was just waiting to her back and traveling around Santiago teaching English. So what was it like the interview process then for you compared to what you'd experienced in...

the US was it was it a diff was a different kind of custom customs think about or you know what was it was it was it scary because it's a different environment different culture right so yeah the owners of the for this English speaking English Institute were American so that was okay but I would say in my overall experience of like working for various companies and some Chilean and some just Argentine owners it's the interviews here very informal

And I think in the US, they're very like, if you Google prepare for an interview, it's like, has he got all his questions? And the typical thing once someone asks you an interview, tell me about yourself in the US, they don't want to know about you. They want you to like portray things in a certain way. And people here, ask you and they really do just want to know like, do you like playing sports? What's it you know, they want to know you. So I would say that those cultural things, maybe I was probably too like

professional or like intense in the beginning because I didn't know that they just it was that casual I guess. Yeah I guess that's the difference I suppose it might more be casual in the US might be seen as a negative in your head before you left it actually no it's the inverse of that which is I think the world is slowly changing towards the UK we were quite mirrored with the US I think we are into techniques but now it's a okay come can we get on with you

James Doran (21:42.516)

we can teach you what we need to do and stuff. yeah. And it makes a lot more sense to just get to know a person first. but that wasn't, I didn't think it was going to be like that because it wasn't like that in the US. You're being exposed to lots of Chilean culture with your job, then going into different offices and houses and meeting all these great people who want to learn English for you. What was that like? What did you, did you learn a lot from them? Did you learn?

a little Spanish for them as well because I guess they be still communicating some Spanish whilst you're delivering your English class. You would think I would learn Spanish, but I think because I had such a low level, I didn't. The students that had that didn't have a high level of Spanish or English and I didn't have a high level of Spanish, that was a difficult one. I would say that I learned my favorite part of that all and I learned just a lot of things about like...

people because the cool thing about teaching classes is a lot of times, at least the way I like to teach was try to find a way to talk about what they're interested in and kind of get that to be what we're talking about because it was conversational. So it was a very like almost intimate way of kind of teaching and I really got to know people in a really deep way that later when I then worked, changed jobs and worked just at a digital marketing company, it was like not that.

deep, guess, like you didn't really get to know people because it wasn't like you just weren't being. And I do think, you know, just putting yourself out there and learning a language is like requires some vulnerability. So that also opened it up for the student who was learning to kind of drop their guard a little bit because it's an uncomfortable experience. Completely. And it helps to actually describe what you've done that day and stuff, which maybe you wouldn't we wouldn't share a day with your family or friends.

in your own language but in your language it just helps you communicate so if you say, basically write a journal in that language and try and speak it to someone will probably help you learn it faster but maybe you're quite introvert or you don't wish to do that and it definitely is quite scary and there's a bit of a block there perhaps for how people's paradigms change for what they used to so when you when you then to be living in the hostel you found a job you're then looking for somewhere more permanent to stay so the

James Doran (24:04.226)

your friends who were also American help you out? Or did you have help from work to find somewhere to stay? What was that like? No, for the first place that I stayed, was like that friend, that friend's boyfriend, was called ex boyfriend. His friend was looking his friends that like live with his mom and his brother and they were looking for like to host someone because they a lot of people, I guess in everywhere will kind of host a study abroad or kind of kind of those other things.

So I lived there for a few months and that was definitely different experience than like being in a hostel amongst a lot of people who were international and younger and there was different more language diversity to being in a household where no one really spoke English and it was, I think a tough experience just because it can be kind of isolating when there's not a lot of way to communicate with people who live there. But I think it was helpful to just get a.

View of Chilean family and kind of like what you're saying. It's no more about Chilean customs how they eat dinner Just kind of little things you just don't even really think about and I stayed there for three months and then I moved in with one of those girls one of the friends that I had Kind of made in that first week that connection they Needed a roommate. So because their roommate left so I was like, want to live there

and I lived with her for like another two, man, it was a group of three of us for like a year. So that was, I think it took about three to four months to really find a living situation that I felt matched my lifestyle a little bit better and kind of the experience that I wanted because I didn't really, you especially as a young college graduate, I didn't want to live with like a parent kind of watching over me with like rules, nothing against that, but I just, want it to, know.

not have a lot of freedom and you want your you want to have the opportunity to explore in that sense as well and you know stay out till 3am and not worry about getting yeah normal 24 year old kind of things yeah and then learning spanish then so obviously you had a limited level of spanish pre -moved did you get private lessons did you join a class as well was there some support that way no i so for the first yeah that would have been good

James Doran (26:27.618)

The first eight months, I didn't really speak any Spanish because I was teaching English, so I talked to English all day. And then all of the friend group that I had really thrown myself into the ex -PAC community, which was great socially to be able to not be alone and have social things to do. But we all spoke in English with each other, and it happened to be a lot of the Chileans that I met were bilingual and spoke English. So I felt like there was this kind of like...

that one of my friends said to me at the time, like, if you don't speak Spanish, write it, form the connection in Spanish. It's really hard to like be in English and then go to Spanish. So like form it right away in Spanish and then you can go back and forth. But I didn't, my language wasn't good enough at that point. So it really wasn't until I switched, I left teaching English and worked at the digital marketing company, which was a Chilean company, Spanish, that I had to like learn Spanish through that job experience.

So is that after you wanted to stay longer than a year? obviously you worked with the intention of being at 12 months. At what point did you realize, I don't want to go back just yet? I think at eight months, I realized I didn't know, I didn't really speak any Spanish. I hadn't really pushed myself in that way language wise. So it was kind of like, I'm not where I want to be with that goal. just teaching English was great, but teaching English and not having it.

the opportunity to speak Spanish outside of work felt to me kind of limiting. So I guess at that point, it was kind of like, I need to kind of get further on this first and learning the language before I think about moving on. And then when I did get to a year, it felt like, wow, the first year for me personally was so challenging that it was and it was kind of starting to feel a little bit more smooth at 12 months that I was like, it took me so much to just get to this year point.

I'm not going to go back now. I worked too hard to get here. Completely. And all that knowledge you've accrued over the year of how to live in the country just becomes somewhat wasted if you left it behind. When you took a job at this market agency, was that a Spanish company or a Chilean company or was it an English speaking company with local people working there as well?

James Doran (28:49.408)

Yeah, it was a Chilean company and I was like an assistant to the CEO. And the CEO for the beginning just used kind of really try to like get me to practice English until I remember having to tell him like, hey, like I can't speak English anymore at work because I to learn Spanish. And it wasn't necessarily like, I think a lot of people might think, I go abroad and I just learn the language, but especially as English speakers.

We can kind of, at least from the US, we're not the best at languages, so we might not understand how, where nationally other people on other nationalities have a really good hold on other languages. And it can be really, there's a lot of people who know English or who want to practice. it was kind of, it wasn't to the answer your question. It was a Chilean company. It did take a little bit of effort and advocating for myself to actually like get people to just be speaking in Spanish with me. It wasn't like an immediate thing.

So did you interview in Spanish or English then for the CEO to give you a job? I tried interview in Spanish and then we just end up switching to English because it was just like, okay, you can switch. Well, then you for trying. That's the first step. If you go in and start the conversation, then like, can we please switch or something? It's the main thing. I tried. Wonderful. You make a good point though about English speakers who are native. It's difficult to learn the language for sure because everywhere you go, want to practice their English because it's such a

but it's the international language. Unfortunately, it's really useful if you're a tourist, but not useful if you want to live somewhere. So I thought in my office in Sweden was an English speaking office, so everyone spoke English, which was great for me. So I knew how to do my job, then I wasn't learning Swedish to the ability I wanted to learn it. And someone like Sweden, it's like 81 % proficient in English. So you...

speak to everyone and they speak your language and similarly with other expats either from Spain or from other European countries they speak English as their second language and they're relearning Swedish so you're kind of stuck with all your friends or expats all speak your language so you still find out it's difficult to progress in that sense but it's a blessing and a curse and it's not for ignorance it's through

James Doran (31:14.358)

Some people try who are British and American perhaps, but yeah, most probably don't when they go abroad. Yeah, I love that you shared your experience because I felt like in the beginning I judged myself a lot for that and it took just accepting that to like actually get better at Spanish to put myself out there. But I think it's a very real, I guess, experience. can feel frustrating because like you said, at Oran Quarantine, yeah, some other people like...

I can't knock them because of how great their language skills are and that's amazing. But it can feel kind of a sword like you said, like, hey, I kind of want to learn more languages. because of my first language, feels like really hard because everyone can speak to me in my first language. So it's quite hard for them to open up the space to like, let me try. Yeah, I know. I try and speak some sentences to my colleagues and they saw I was even speaking English with a weird accent or German.

I'm not Swedish. I was like, no, no, no, no. I'm trying to speak like Swedish to you. I'm trying to ask you how was your day and talk to you about like food. They're like, we didn't expect you to speak Swedish. So we didn't like listen for it, which is the point where you mentioned about setting the when you first meet people set the baseline in the language you want to actually learn and then switch in that if you're struggling because then they associate. OK, you want to speak Spanish words.

I guess with me people didn't associate Swedish, which is an interesting perspective to think about. Great. So we kind of covered your first year in a bit then of living in Chile. What was it like? Now you're kind of settled and got past that first year. How did you find it? How did you find the social life? it many expats to begin with? No one you kind of settled? you found more locals or other South Americans to hang out with? Yeah. Great question. I do think that it really did quite kind of

shift I think for me and my personal experience it really shifted between when I arrived to Chile single and then after I met my now husband who's Chilean I think that the social life for me changed quite a lot just because when I was single I was hanging out a lot more with I think other single people I think that's probably how it is when anyone is single anywhere and living abroad and just being in my younger 20s or like mid 20s like

James Doran (33:33.218)

The social life was kind of like a let's just go out all the time and get to know people like on a superficial level, just because they're fun at the time. So I think I met like a lot of people, a lot of people came in and out, but there was a few people who were closer, but it wasn't as kind of slow and steady or kind of closer, more chill relationships. And then I did know Chileans and I did have Chilean friends, but I

I think integrating into Chilean society, I think culturally is not the same as in the US. Like, guess I put it in perspective, the US is so big and it's so common that during college, a lot of people in the US go somewhere else. And so it's very common that people have friends from high school, friends from college, from work, and they're, kind of set up to have to kind of like move on at that point and kind of make a new group.

But something I noticed in Chile, it was very common people had their high school group because the country I think is like 19 million people compared to 330 million people, 300, I don't know, over 300 million in the US. So the sheer size, think that socially, like once I got more into like a Chilean kind of lifestyle, I realized that like it just had a different social kind of makeup. Like it's more like people really hang on to their high school friends.

They say they're childhood friends, some people, which I think has also a double -edged sword. It's something that's really cool, but it can be hard to be not just the outsider, but a person from a different country to entering groups where a lot of times, even within Chileans, it's kind of hard to enter a group that has kind of there, the core group, and hasn't really changed for a while. So that was challenging in a way that I didn't experience that.

when I was friends with a lot of expats because, and I still am friends with people who are expats because they're just so, I feel like there's a mentality that's just so open and just, it's sharing lot of values too. It's very open and easy and usually they're very inclusive and willing to kind of let someone come into their group because they all know how it is. But when you move somewhere and people have never lived abroad, they don't really know that, they haven't lived that, so that wasn't.

James Doran (35:56.078)

Sometimes people weren't as open. So I don't know if that makes sense, but just socially Was like it can still sometimes be a challenge No, they can completely yeah, it's a it's definitely a paradigm shift. I think when So during parallels again from Swiss Chileans that they have enough friends from childhood so like I remember I did a I helped some youtuber in the streets of

Gothenburg record and they asked about friends and how sweet very hard to get to the group. Yeah, I my friends from my Kindergarten, I'm still best friends in the North. I was so hang out every year. We're going all day with our families and it's like wow. Okay. I know like okay My two friends from school have mentors as very young but other than that I don't really speak to many people that I grew up with because We've all just said it's gone separate ways. It's just by chance. We grew up in the same place This would mean we have the same ideals

Whereas as you get older, you meet people who have your views and your kind of hobbies and that's how you become friends with people as you get older because you actually look quite cool. It might be a small country thing. know, I think just that wasn't something so like when you asked about social, think socially I wasn't aware of that. Like being in the, I think also

I wasn't aware that there's things that US culturally were like social kind of norms about like, obviously we know social norms and the big turns above, but just like socializing. thought, this is just polite or this is normal. Those type of things we don't really realize until you realize, wow, this might just be cultural. Yeah, know completely. I guess it's ingrained in you because you see it on your TV growing up or the social norms that you expected to see just from media or from school.

And then so you met your your now husband, Chilean. How did you meet them? I'm asking curious to think about like, obviously, you would with expats. So then you obviously met Chilean and change your your paradigm. really did. No, I don't mind asking at all. We met actually through the friends that I made when I first read to Chile, like a friend of a friend of a friend was like the connector. And we met at a barbecue, which they call a cello. And they have a lot of

James Doran (38:16.866)

that just that's kind of their social thing. And we we were both there. We have like a friend in common. And that's how we were both of the same thing. And we met each other. He was actually like came with a date. He was like came with someone else. It was kind of like the guy was like really unaware because like talking to you the whole night. And she was looking at us like with her evil eyes. And I was just thinking, this guy's so sweet. But he just he doesn't get it. So

when we met it was very much like okay there's a chemistry I like this guy but it was very clear like this is not a person who's maybe ready for something serious just because they were kind of you know have that energy like just something more casual so nothing happened out of it just knowing that that time like relationship and like dating wise like I didn't want something that was casual I wanted something more serious until like a few months later we ran into

into each other on the street, exchange phone numbers, and then it wasn't until that friend that we had in common's birthday that like we re -cut and it's one book and it just ended up flowing. Sharing all the things, not just maybe the nice version because suddenly you meet someone and there might be a moment, but you can kind of tell it's just not. sounds like you had to meet cute a bit later on, which is always good. Yeah. Yeah. You explained it a much more.

British way, but yeah, we did have our me cute later on but yeah, it will be that there will be the moment of romantic calm when you're like This is not this is not the timing the timing wasn't right. That's important. that's that's life suppose, but it's good thing you got to you know say it was lives and now you very happy and and It's it's it's worked out well for both of you in end So when you when you first met were you speaking Spanish or English to each other? Well, how did you?

kind of engaged that he tried to speak as he is bilingual. And so he tried to speak in English all the time. And I just kept on responding in Spanish. It was just like, I want to talk in Spanish. So it took also him like I had to be like, firm about like, Hey, I want to talk in Spanish. So even people who are genuine and really like me while they can really subconsciously see it as an opportunity to practice their English kind of. So yeah, it

James Doran (40:42.542)

Now I think definitely there was a time where it was mostly Spanish, but now I would say it's very much Spanglish, like 50%, 50 % because we're both bilingual, so it just kind of goes. Yeah, if you don't know the word in Spanish, you do the English word and vice versa. I suppose it's quite common, I think. Yeah, for sure. Especially with modern words like selfie and things like that. If you watch like lot of European languages speak, they're just throwing the modern English word in. It's just quite amusing to watch. Yeah, sometimes I have to ask still like...

How could some people if I ask how do you say this or like they just say the word in English. I'm like, but I want to learn the Spanish word. Like I want to learn sometimes how to say some of these words because what do you say in Spanish? We just say it in English. we, yeah, but that definitely happens a lot. At what point in your kind of journey through Chile was, was meeting your now husband how early on and then I she wanted to stay for that relationship to blossom. Yeah. I met my husband. We started, we got together. We started dating in 2018.

So it's a couple of years after I came. And I would say like once we kind of had a conversation and like the relationship was gonna have a future, that was important, I think. Just dating odd to be really clear and like for me personally, I was like, I'm not gonna stay in another country and just like build a life here. This isn't going anywhere because this is a big, that's a lot.

for me to do. So from the beginning, I think in the first few to six months, once we were clear like this has a potential to be something more, I guess it just kind of flowed and it probably wouldn't have felt as comfortable if I wouldn't have felt that the other, my now husband would have been committed to that. But seeing that this person is committed and that they do want to see where this flourishes in a deeper way, I think that that

just felt kind of like, this is just, it wasn't ever like, I'm going to stay for him. It was like, I'm just living my life. I'm just going to like, if I was living in a different city in the US, that's kind how I felt like staying in this person living here. Yeah. This felt like that. You said that then blossomed more socially for you. You met your, your now has been kind of friends and family and kind of fell into their circles, which was often easier to more Spanish if it was predominantly Chilean French groups who would speak Chilean or be Spanish.

James Doran (43:08.014)

around you then you're kind of still you have to learn it all. You kind of feel part of the conversation. Yeah, it was that definitely. also, I professionally wise, I worked at that marketing agency like a year and a half. And then for four years, I worked at a travel agency. And we all spoke English with the clients because the clients are mostly from Europe and the US and Canada was in North America. But everyone in the office spoke Spanish and they were all

expats to but Spanish speaking expats. that was like, think, when work and socially could be both kind of in Spanish, I think that's really, really when I was able to kind of pick up because it was more fluid. And on the kind of concept of traveling, were you able to explore much of South America with your base now being Chile? Have you seen some amazing parts of the mountains and things or what's been your favourite? Yeah.

I was able to travel like some cool places with the travel company. So that was pretty cool. And also on my own travels, I think definitely Chile is really beautiful. And there's a lot of mountains and volcanoes and lakes and desert and ocean and all of that. think that Torres del Paine, national, the Patagonia, kind of what everyone thinks of the mountains is really, really beautiful. It's just kind of iconic.

And there's also a place in the south of Chile called la carretera austral, which just means like the southern highway. And it's just a really long, very, very long highway. And I like it almost like maybe a little bit more than the Patagonia Tourista Paine because it's less known, but it's a little bit more like, it's less exploited at this point. We will see where it goes in the future once pro -com and tourism develops, it can kind of make things.

really cool, but then everyone goes there and it's kind of like if you go somewhere that's super cool and you see the pictures, but then there's like a line like in nature and I take a picture, it can feel like it kind of takes away the specialness of it a little bit. But that's just how places that are very popular are. But I would say like those two places. Yeah, they're I mean, there's so much beauty, but yeah. And also I've been to Argentina and Colombia. We're going to Peru later this year. I mean, it's still have.

James Doran (45:30.562)

There's a lot to know in South America, so there's still a lot to know. Yeah, because the Galapagos is off the coast of Chile, right? So I guess Chile is huge. It's very long and take a long time to I would love to go to the Galapagos too. It's just kind of an expensive destination, but yeah, would definitely love to go there. Yeah. It reminds me of if you watch Schitt's Creek, when she's when, I don't know you watch Schitt's Creek at all, it's all I can think of is that scene.

It's annoying that's it's an aspect of it. Sometimes you can't get all your favorite series. I need to get a VPN and then you should be able to make it work. yeah, okay. I should look into that. Completely and that's one thing that helped me with homesickness was being able to watch like BBC comedy shows that I used to watch when I was back in the UK or like just yeah films that were from my childhood or whatever or

just random panel shows on YouTube, thinking that I would just constantly watch because it's after working all day and you're it's hard and tiring enough in your own language. You don't want to think about another language so much, it was very useful. On the topic of home to you, since you speak to your family often, how often have they come to visit you? Has that been something which has been difficult? Yeah, that's a great question. We do speak. I say I talk the most to my mom because she's a person.

She opens up her availability a little bit more than other people do, like most moms. And my siblings, I have a brother and a sister and we do talk, but we're really busy. So it's like, we'll get on the phone when we can, but it's, I would say like once every month, like once a few weeks, but we definitely do like WhatsApp more. We do definitely do talk. They haven't actually, the first time my siblings came was...

My husband and got married in November 2022 and that was the first time they came. Just because Chile is not really the most affordable destination to come to like out of South America, it's quite expensive and it's really far away. So in the US, it doesn't have the best vacation policy compared to other countries. It's really friendly in that area. So it took them all a bit longer to come here. And my mom came to visit me. This was for a second time, but moreover, I had gone back.

James Doran (47:55.296)

more there than they had come here. But actually this year for Christmas and for New Year's, it's going to be the first time that we're both, we're going to see each other by meeting or meeting each other somewhere else. So we're going to be spending Christmas and New Year's in Columbia together. And I've never, I haven't spent Christmas with my family since I've been here. I've never, just because for the U .S. it's very expensive to travel back during that time period. So

and that and when I worked in the travel industry, that was a really busy time for us. So I wasn't allowed to like be without self surveys or not be there to help a client if they were have trouble with their travels. So I'm excited. I find eight years later, it's like, hey, why don't we all take advantage of you have a sister and a daughter living somewhere else? Let's let's explore another place together. That's incredible. I hope your Christmas is

This joy, I'm sure. Well, I have to ask you in January, then how it went. Definitely. Yeah. First time, felt like, why don't you guys only to come here? We don't need to go there just because it's quite, it's quite a long stretch Santiago to spanning the continent on us, but it two continents in that matter. exactly. So it's like, hey, why don't we both get a vacation and just see each other? Because I've been here for enough that it's not okay for me not to go back to my hometown every year because

And your friends from college or home, are you keeping contact with many of those? Yeah, I would say that like at this point just a few. I think in the beginning I definitely tried, but I realized like kind of equality over quantity, just realizing to be really honest, like my capacity to like make friends here, have a job, a social life and have like real contact, not just like service level, like make time to talk to them.

On the phone, sometimes our phone catch up with a few hours and be like, how much time do I have to do that with so many people? So there are like a handful of, think, like close girlfriends where we do keep in touch and we do have these kind of girl talks and get on the phone. it kind of had to be a little bit more selective than I think I might have been if I would have lived back home. Just because like I realized like I can't be every weekend just having long conversations because I don't prioritize.

James Doran (50:18.328)

getting to know people here, but then can't just forget about people back home because then you feel like, okay, they're also important to me. just finding a balance. So definitely yes. But yeah, just realising for me at least like to have it be less people and just be a little bit more quality over quantity. Like maybe not every week, like once every couple months or... No, it's a very, very good point you brought up as well about the, you have to prioritise or make the...

the choice of do you prioritize opportunities to make friends where you live now, who you will see in person more regularly or maintaining relationships back home and being honest with your friends like, hey, I can't talk to every week, but we can talk to you once a month or every few months or, you know, we'll have a Zoom call or a Skype or FaceTime or whatever and it will be less often than we have been in the same country or the same town and city because, you you need to make your life because, you know, that's

what's the use for your mental health, I'm sure. I guess group chats are always useful because you can all like post your updates on together. Yeah, no group chats are the best. Yeah. It's really funny. It probably isn't. It might sound weird to you because I'm pretty sure WhatsApp in the UK and Sweden is like a normal thing. But in the US, no one has WhatsApp. Like the US is like a black hole for WhatsApp. It's like everyone else in the world, but WhatsApp doesn't

really occupied in the US. So I have like taught my family, they now send audio messages, which like I learned from like, most like Latin Americans here send a lot of audios. And I don't know if that's the thing in UK or Sweden, but like that's a very, maybe it's a WhatsApp thing, very popular to communicate. And so I, a lot of times it'll take me a while to get in the phone with my sister, but we'll send each other like nine minute audios. And it's just like, okay, I can listen to that when I'm just walking, whatever.

It ends up working a lot better when we kind of, we might not be talking in the fall, but you can send me three minute audio here and there and three minutes I can do while I'm the dishes. I can listen and then respond. And it's like a phone call, but you don't need to respond right away. So I think it took them a while to get to send the audios and some friends and family members, it's just, they don't want to do it. It's like, I don't want to send an audio, but it is interesting to see that even those little things with communication, like I probably wouldn't even send.

James Doran (52:42.154)

as if I never would have moved abroad because it I think it's like a WhatsApp thing and I didn't even it's like a different form of communication. You know, WhatsApp is probably the most commonly used app on my phone other than like SSME but in terms of messaging people and voice note is yeah maybe not something I would have done but a lot of my like Spanish friends at uni all did it. It seems to be quite a Spanish language thing.

to the point where my girlfriend does a lot with her friends from university as well and she's very good at that. I do with some people, mainly my Spanish friends, because they are just reciprocating what they send to me. It's always nice because you get the intonation in the voice, get the humour comes across more and it's your family or it's your friends, you kind of feel like you're with them, which is quite nice as opposed to just the... Yeah.

I love your like everyone should just listen to that. Who doesn't want to do voice notes. It's so much better than text, but that is interesting. do. I've had some other people comment to me like only person in the US they know that studied abroad in Brazil or is Colombian or is this like, you might be a Spanish speaking bitch. No, but it's definitely so we all need to take on board for sure. Is there anything else about living abroad? Being in the country you wish to share? Because I appreciate we've been talking

quite a long time about your incredible journey, but it's all been very, very valuable. Is there anything else you wish to add or expand on? Yeah. I guess the one thing I will say is that like, just to, for anyone who wants to move abroad or is recently moving abroad to just be, give themselves like a lot of compassion and grace when it comes to like their career growth, just because a lot of like I've been abroad for eight years. I am now like coaching other people like experts in creating their life abroad and

I have had a lot of expat friends and it's kind of common that compared to your friends, maybe back home, we've never left. Like career growth just looks different sometimes when you're abroad. And that doesn't mean that you can't get to really great places, but that can sometimes be like a sore spot for some people, especially considering like if you went somewhere where maybe your studies aren't validated or like you kind of feel like you have to take a few steps back. so to just...

James Doran (55:05.706)

know that you're not alone and that like career growth is okay. Like I have this business now, but like for a long time I was just kind of like just doing jobs that I could get and just learning and I didn't really love what I was doing, but I was actually learning lot of skills that I use now as a business owner. So it doesn't have to look like the way maybe it looks for your friends and peers back home. And so just go easy on yourself on that point.

No, they're completely, you're right. It's the pathways we follow and maybe what we expect the trajectory to look like growing up is different to how you navigate yourselves. And yes, people will have the predefined career paths and everything else, but you know, it's when you're abroad, you don't go for the career necessarily unless you're going for work.

you're going for the experiences, you're going for, mentioned, the language, the opportunity to explore new cultures. And, you know, a lot of people who seem to be quite successful all have that connectedness of having lived abroad. listen to, like, lot of people on TV and things, or, you know, great public speakers, they've all kind of done something different. Everyone else, you know, living abroad is certainly different to everyone else.

definitely worth keeping in your arsenal because you do become a lot more empathetic as a person because you have a different experience. So it's viable in soft skill terms. completely agree. I think you're so, right in the thick of it. It can feel frustrating to get like an intangible thing that older people say, you're so good. I wish I would have done that when you just want the tangible kind of result, but exactly what you're saying. Like just remind yourself that what

path they're taking is going to help with the success that you kind of want right now in a bigger way later. And so just to kind of trust that, but it can feel kind of like you're delaying certain kind of things that you want to get to sometimes. And your lived experience separates you from everyone else. Otherwise, if you all did the same thing, it'd be quite boring life because it would be nothing to talk about.

James Doran (57:23.756)

I know it's difficult to measure yourself against your peers. If you grew up in another country to where you live now, you're measuring yourself against two sets of peers. And it is difficult because if you're where you live now, people haven't left and they've got advantage on you because they've always been there and your friends back home have never left. So they've always stayed there. So you are, as you said, you have taken that sideward step, which then delays the journey, but you probably offer a lot more.

in other ways for sure. then secretly everyone's jealous of the person who lives abroad. So it's kind of ironic. I guess we can go into section three, which is kind of a review recap of your time.

James Doran (58:05.934)

Welcome back to the podcast World of Tension 3, which is not really named yet. I've been saying this now for over 50 episodes, but it is essentially a review of the time. So, Martha, this is where my guests kind of... The first question is usually about before you moved and you can go back and give yourself some advice, what might it be? Maybe your senses learned Spanish? That's all good advice.

from your side you, what might that be? What might you kind of, you know, gift yourself or your younger self? Putting myself a little bit outside of my comfort zone of the Spanish, just venturing into some areas that spoke Spanish more would have been helpful. I think something as well that probably would help with that Spanish and venturing outside of my comfort zone would have been just real like doing more work to think about like

things that I didn't realize were gonna have as much of a, like, make as much of a difference in the experience about how I talk to myself, how I took care of my health. I think before I moved abroad, I thought my health and well -being was just my physical health and just like the whole emotional, mental, even social well -being. Like, I wasn't, that was something that I learned through like being burnt out and not like through this experience and through trying to like make the time for all the social things and have a job and then just kind of

Dragging myself along and putting myself as like a second priority I know the health and well -being compared to where it was eight years ago has definitely had its moment and it's becoming more mainstream and more talked about But I would definitely say like if I would have prioritized Just meeting my basic needs about like what do I need setting myself up like? not believing every thought that I said because I think when you go outside of your comfort zone and

throw yourself into new experience, it can bring up lot of insecurities, a lot of this is too hard and if you're always listening to that voice, it gets really hard to get up the next day and to be uncomfortable again. So it wasn't until I think I became aware of like those thought patterns and started actually getting help, like support through like coaching with that, that I was like, wow, like this has been a lot harder than it's needed to be. So I would say that vice -allegate is like

James Doran (01:00:24.888)

to focus on that wellbeing, of like mental, emotional, and physical wellbeing as like, just a practice, like to like, be able to like, handle all of these challenges would have, it so would have been challenging and it so would have sucked a lot of the times. But I think it wouldn't have like rocked me maybe as much if I would have been a little bit more prepared from that aspect. No, think that's, you touched on something very important there, which, know, especially if you're younger, you

you do have this kind of, I can do everything. I can conquer it all. Just keep passing it all. But then it does get exhausting. You kind of don't get to put what you just burnt out. burn out. I often just ended up just gearing myself to a point of fatigue and then passing out, sleeping for 10 hours, and I'd be fine for three weeks of not really sleeping properly because I wanted to fill.

20 hours of my day would work or with experiences like playing sport or going out with my friends. You feel the pressure from all parts of your life to achieve and you don't give yourself that time to... Well, I just kind of want to watch an episode of Bake Offs and go to bed at one o 'clock. It's not cool. Yeah, I think that is a really good point that I'm 32.

now but when that felt like social death if I would have done that when I first arrived when I was 24. So it's I don't know I'm a millennial I don't know if gen Z's don't if they're a little bit more flexible and open but I think that maybe some of it was of the age and feeling like I just needed to participate in everything and that that was what building a community and social life was like so what I didn't realize is that didn't leave a lot of space for like

taking care of myself or building community without sacrificing my own needs and being like, I can't just go out all the time because I need some time with myself. So I think that that like time for self reflection and time for just like being with yourself or feeling your feels is as important to like a lot of the social, putting yourself out there, going even if you don't feel like it is, they're both important. And I say that because I think I try to make content.

James Doran (01:02:44.524)

about this too, because I think that a lot of things about living abroad are kind of portrayed in a way like you just have to be always going out there and be around people. But the people that I know who are successful have done this take time to like be with themselves and learn and grow. You have more empathy and they reflect. So like it can't just be like going out and being around other people. There has to be some personal growth. You have to be able to accept the being out and being a people if you're not.

mentally available. It doesn't matter how much you do it. Your cup is full. You have to empty your cup before you can then go fill it up, which is the issue. I what you mentioned is when you're younger or when you move as an adult, not for university, not for school or anything, you go in as one person joining a community or a group. Whereas if you're going in as a student on a year or for a course,

You may be 20, 30, 40 people all going in together, not knowing anyone. So you have a collective struggle and then you become good friends from that experience and you have a structured life a bit more differently. Whereas if you go in not knowing anyone, you've got to find them all. You've lost your friends or your family who you could literally just vegetate with and not worry about. You can sit on the couch and be on your phone or watch a film and not, it feels very comfortable. You've kind of lost all that safety net or blanket.

which is useful to have. You can just be like, I just want to have a glass of wine and watch, you know, Maiden Chelsea or... And just not like be around so long, that happens. That's right. That's luxurious, especially in the beginning. That doesn't happen a lot. Yeah, exactly. But we crave that. think as people you crave just, you know, doing nothing with people you love.

And if you've moved country and you don't have those connections that people you love, so it's difficult. I think for me, a lot of, a lot of evenings I spent calling friends, I'm sure you'd have enough time to, but calling the friends you'd have those times where they'd just been just talking absolute nonsense for two hours was a chance for me to, to refill and download what I've got and, you know, hear a lot of things that they've got as an opportunity for me to balance myself a little bit and then go for a run would also help.

James Doran (01:05:08.65)

Yeah, I love that and I think that's something similar that I did too. I think I met, it might have seemed like in the beginning that I had so many, had this huge group of friends, but there wasn't a lot of like deep friendships. So I think something that now throughout the eight years probably just growing older and just more life experience and realizing that like not all of the friends need to meet like that deep, which you said like I could just sit and have a wine and watch Big Op or call about you and just be like in a flow or you cut.

don't have to warm up, know, like to those people. And it's okay if it takes, you know, a long time to find those people wherever you're living. I think that I know people who moved across the US and they said to them six years in a new city in the US to find that. So I think it goes back to what you said about moving somewhere as an adult when you don't have that built in thing to connect over and bond over. That takes a lot of time. So just it's okay to like, sometimes opt out of

that one night you've been going out a lot to meet other people, just like, I'm going to call my best friend back home. And that is still a social connection. Maybe it can convert into like an issue if like you never leave the house and it's like every single night or everything like you're saying no to all new opportunities. But it's not there's nothing wrong with like that still being an important part, like you said, to fill your cup, because it's not like you just end all of the friendships or relationships you had when you move somewhere.

Yeah, no, completely. think my, one of my good friends who I spoke to before actually, he lives in Sweden still, he told me I need to get better at being by myself because I'd always like want to hang out with people because I didn't want to be alone. But I was like, well, you need to get better at being alone because you know, have to get used to it. And I was like, it's a good point, but now just come play snooker with me or something. Well, I want the expert on themselves too. We don't ever know what people are going through.

And sometimes people just might really want to be around other people a This is not really a problem. It's just like the FOMO can be really big when you're living abroad because it's not just I'm missing out. I'm missing out. need to build this community and human beings were social creatures. So we forget like, consciously, like we really depend on being part of a group. And so I can feel really unsafe sometimes to prioritize just being by yourself when you're like, but I need to

James Doran (01:07:33.036)

be in a friend group, need to have people to invite me to do stuff. It's very important to the experience, but so is kind of learning how to like grow. like you said, all the personal growth that comes with living abroad can't really come if we just are rushing past all of the moments that we can be slowing down for. Well, exactly what you said, like you kind of have to throw yourself into the experience as well. So it takes some time to figure out a balance, but

The balance is important. Massively, yeah. Is there anything else you want to kind of share with the listeners in terms of your experiences or advice you want to give to people? Yeah, no worries. I think a good advice that I wish that I would have really thought about and like gotten more clarity on before I moved abroad, which is something that like I like to do in my coaching and that I learned through being coached by someone else.

was to get clear on what I valued and what my values were because maybe it was the age and what was around just like young 20s wanting to fit in, feeling uncomfortable, like sticking out or not fitting in. Sometimes felt like my values, especially if they didn't align with other people with their value, what other people wanted felt like uncomfortable to prioritize. But I would say that like I didn't really find like success career wise, relationship wise, friendship wise with myself or financially.

until I started, until I like define what my values were and I started making my decisions and like my routine, my daily choices, like around what I valued because anyone is going to be faced with a lot of choices. Do this or do that, do this or do that. And if there's a person isn't clear on like what they want and what they value, it kind of feels like you're just getting tossed around or from the outside. Maybe people think you have this awesome life because

We travel a lot and look happy and you look great on social media, but deep down you feel like something is missing and that might be a sign that a person isn't really clear on like what they value and it can feel really scary like that go to do something that they feel like is wrong. So it sounds like really, really simple. Like, I know that I value this, but if we all have to sit down and write down our values, even me, sometimes it can be hard to just pick three or five, but once those are.

James Doran (01:09:55.438)

it can be a lot easier, for example, to do a career change and to pick a company that you actually feel you're gonna be a good fit in when you're like, I can really clear like they are dishonest, I value honesty, that's not gonna work. These things like are heavily used as a guide and we can't really look at other people and just copy paste what works for someone else abroad. And I'm sure you've seen that from interviewing, know, 53 people that.

Everyone achieved success differently and it all looks different. So you can't really do what someone else did. Kind of have to go back to each person. What do I want? What do I value? And be okay with like it looking different than like the people you're except friends abroad or friends back home or just people in general. No, I think that's a really, really good point and great piece of advice. need to not just align your values to yourself, but you know, you

becomes a red atomic habit. So you spread the book where you want to set your space for the things you want to achieve. And that also can probably applied to your values too, because if you do outline that, I have these values, I don't really prioritize. don't look after, or give you a time to, if you start to think, okay, how can I set my space up to make sure I kind of address those values? as you said, you know, make sure that your values align with your,

your professional life as well, whether you work for yourself, whether you work for the company, make sure that, okay, what does the company

What's the mission statement of the company and what do they want to achieve? Do I see myself delivering that? Because if you don't, then you're probably not going to do a good job for them anyway because you're not work. You're best at that. And then you're spending a lot of time outside of work being unhappy because you're not aligned in your... I bet they're done that. Yeah, that's so true.

James Doran (01:11:56.566)

Yeah, what a good reason why I said I sort of thank you for your time and your, your honesty with your journey and how it's not all, you know, roses and tulips, you know, there are often some thorns along the way and it's, it's, it's great to find someone who's so passionate about living abroad and somebody's got such great, I guess, experience and expertise in the subject as well. So it's

Lovely to talk to you and get your experience. And thank you for sharing it. don't know if you want to share where people can find your own content and other great work you're doing as well. Sure. Yeah, thank you. I spend lots of fun just chatting. I'm mostly on Instagram and TikTok and they can find me by Coach with and yeah, at Coach with Instagram, TikTok. That's where they can find me.

Wonderful. I'll be sure to link that below in the show that people to find and follow. And as always, if you have enjoyed the podcast and have found something that's useful to you, please let us know the comments, please do engage in as we will have, because he's back with you, don't worry. And as always, if you want to share with your friends and family, then please do pass it on and spread the word because that's how communities grow and

Yeah, hopefully people can learn a lot from people like Mary Martha and everyone else has been on the podcast. Well, thank you. It's very, very kind of you to say so. Yeah. And as always, we'll see you next time for the Expat Pop.