James Doran (00:06.254)

So hello and welcome to the expat pod. name is James your host and today I'm joined by a hadden. How do you and I met through a future friend I guess Omar who was a previous guest on the podcast. He sent me your way and I've been very lucky to be a guest on your podcast which is out now. So if you listen to this go check out the podcast that we recorded on your channel and on your platforms. I listened to us talk about essentially the same thing but the focus was on me this time and today

We're going to flip it around and talk about your journey from living abroad to living abroad, I should say really. So if you want to give us a quick introduction on who you are, where you're from and where you've lived. Yes. You actually said it quite right. It was from living abroad to living abroad in a way. And I'll explain to you how. So my name is Ahad. am lots of things.

So I love data, that's my day to day job. I also love creating content as you know already James, and I love being on the more of the human side of things. So like talking and debating and understanding the problems that face us. So that is something I do just for fun. I was born in Saudi Arabia, but ethnically I'm Pakistani. And then I living in the Netherlands right now. So you can imagine why I said from and do because my parents were Pakistani, but my dad had a business in Saudi Arabia. So was born there.

for eight years of my life, then moved to Pakistan for the next eight years, eight to 10 years of my life. From there, moved to Turkey for three to four years of my life, then moved back to Pakistan for a couple of years of my life, and then finally moved to the Netherlands, where I am currently now staying for five years strong. So a lot of people naturally ask me, you must be tired, there must be a next thing. I'm like, it feels like that I should be tired, but I'm not, I am quite, quite content in the Netherlands. have...

A wonderful life here. My wife is half Dutch, half Afghan. I have a little daughter now. So as of now. Pretty settled. This is my story. This is my story. Yeah. Well, I'm sure we'll unpack your story in podcasts and we'll get into it.

James Doran (02:18.862)

Welcome to the first part of the podcast or getting there. I had this is essentially everything you needed to do before moving abroad. But I guess your first move then from Saudi Arabia to Pakistan, you didn't really have much say in being eight years old. I guess it's not it's not really worth as dwelling too much on that one. Maybe you didn't want to go maybe did want to go. You know, elaborate on that if you will. Did you want to move?

Back to Pakistan where your parents are from or did you like living in Saudi Arabia? I am grateful that my parents moved me back to Pakistan because I got to be raised in a country and in a society that taught me a lot. Pakistan has its downs like any other country in the world and there are a lot of downs but you got to learn a lot as well and the journey I was in was not as privileged as my social status is in Pakistan because I went to a normal middle-tier school first.

So they are groomed a lot. So for example, my younger brother, by that time we became more substantial in our lifestyle. So my younger brother went to more of a posh school. Like I think in the UK and the Netherlands that doesn't exist much, right? Maybe the UK does. In the Netherlands you have the public school system that is like flat and then you have these some private institutions, but they're also not that high class. You're not allowed. Or if you are, at least we don't know because we have never heard of it. In the UK, I do know that there are some private boarding schools that are like...

Krim Dalla Krim, where your prime ministers are from, or your royalties from. So Pakistan is the same. You have the public schools, where in our social days, no one goes. And then you have some middle tier schools, where me and my brother, sisters went. And then you have some elite schools, where my younger brother went. And you can see a stark difference between us in the baby group. wow. Yeah, so I'm pretty, grateful in that sense that I got to learn to be scrappy and got to learn a good life. And you're right.

doesn't really make sense to talk much about that move from there to there because I was barely aware of it. I don't even know. Frankly, it was years ago. but if I had to talk about an official first move that would be from Pakistan to Turkey, For my university. Yeah. Yeah. So what, was the reason for moving? Was it for education? I understand based on the timelines you gave me about 18 years old, you have moved. usual university age. that the reason for doing? Yes. Yeah. Yes. And no. So.

James Doran (04:39.988)

One thing you will realize throughout this podcast is I am driven by one thing and one thing only, and that is the prospect or the essence of love itself. And love is a subjective term, but for me, it's mostly attached to a woman that I'm trying to pursue. Right? So that will explain most of my things to you. So the reason I tried to go abroad was because of my first, second girlfriend.

and she lived in the US. She was a Pakistani US citizen. So of course, it's quite common in Pakistan that people do this, that they have their children abroad in countries like UK, Canada, and the US. And then they bring them back, just like what I'm grateful for, to give them that upbringing. So they learn the systems and the culture of Pakistan. And then they go abroad back for the universities because they're citizens, it's quite cheap for them to do the university. So why not? So she went back to the US.

and we became long-distance and she said you need to come here and I said okay why not but I was not a good student at all so I was like let's figure it out I don't have that much money so I don't know if I can afford the schools there so I tried to apply for US I didn't get anywhere it was in Ohio that I wanted to be in I couldn't get in anywhere near Ohio so I applied for Canada and in Canada we got into this one university called University of Manitoba I don't know if you've heard of it

It's a... I've heard of it. heard of it. have no idea where it is. Yeah, it's in Winnipeg. Apparently minus 30 degrees, minus 25 degrees. I am grateful again that I didn't go there, but that was the plan. And also another thing that was the plan, and Pakistan people try to scam you a lot. So we were 10 people who couldn't go, who wanted to go there. Two of us couldn't go. Eight of us did. Two of us who couldn't go was me and a friend of mine from, we went to Turkey, but not in the same universities.

So what happened was the eight of them out of eight of them, think five or four of the five or six of them actually shifted after a year because it was a scam. So it was not university. It was the foundation level of a university and which needed impeccable score to actually graduate and come into a university. So it was a pre-university of sort and you're not going to pay shit loads of money to go to another country to do a pre-university. So they did not tell us that they tried to scam us a little bit in that sense. So

James Doran (06:54.698)

I got lucky in the sense that I applied for the visa, I got rejected, I got applied for visa again, and I got rejected again. So in that process when I got rejected once, I was full-fledged to try again, but in that process, my friend actually got a sponsorship to Turkey, the sponsorship or scholarship to Turkey for this new university. You've never heard of it in Pakistan. Now it's become a big thing. So we were their marketing material. They were the three who got 100 % scholarship.

so that the university can make its name and now people go there willing to pay 10,000 euros a year just to go study there because they're like, it must be a big name. So it worked. But for us, we were the guinea pigs. So they just were letting anyone in from Pakistan. They were like, come here, it's fine. So my friend got in at 80 % scholarship. And then because of him, another friend got an 120 % scholarship. So I just applied. I was like, you know what? I'll apply as a backup. And I also got 100 % scholarship.

So that was still a backup. still applied for Canada. I got rejected. Then I thought, you know what, nothing else. So now I have to go here. My parents were against it. They were like, you couldn't get into Canada to stay here. Cause I had the university acceptance of one of the best universities in Pakistan. But I was like, nah, I want to go abroad. So that was the process of deciding finally that, look, Turkey. And I told my girlfriend that, Hey, look, we're going to make it work. Don't worry about it. I'm trying my best. Let me get to the, let me get to Turkey from there. Let's jump.

and go further and let's see if I can get across the Atlantic somehow. Spoiler alert, she wasn't interested to wait that long. She was like, this is going to take too long. And once I landed in Turkey, I officially settled in. was like, this won't work because I can't wait for you for so long. So I said, don't go, please. But she decided it was time and I respect her for that. So that's that happened already. But before getting onto the plane, the next steps were getting the degrees attested, getting

language scores ready. We had our A levels, O levels, which is the same in the UK, but there you had their own system. So we had to translate the degrees into their university level. So it makes sense what we're doing. Along this whole process, I got accepted without any conditions after my AS and my AS scores were really bad. James, I think you would understand because you did the same O and A levels, but I was a bright student in AS, but...

James Doran (09:17.6)

I got scammed by the school system. And this is me just using the word scam very exaggerationally, but actually what happened was I was a stellar student. 4.0 was my GPA in school, but they did not allow you to get tuitions outside of school because they said you should study here at that party outside. That's how it should be. So I studied really hard and got the results that I needed, but that was not the real exam. The real exams were the CIE, right? The real exams that were coming.

And there was like a month and a half gap between that university school ending and this exam starting. Usually at that time you go to tuitions to get yourself ready and prepped and they did not allow that. So I was just playing FIFA all the time and my parents were not worried about me at all because they saw the grades and they were like, this guy is smart, this guy is going to figure it out. I got a B, C, in my A.S. and I got a B, C, U in my A.2 because that was further math. Yeah, it was further math to be fair.

Brother mother's skin. I did one module on further maths and mechanics and I had done engineering, Yeah. So it made sense to do that module, but just maths was fine. I wasn't doing further pure or anything. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. So, and I was not taking it seriously after AS when my grades went down, I was just like, forget life is not good. So we'll move past it. And then

I was in so I was barely studying, I just got my degree certificate, got my visa and everything was ready then I got my ticket and then I was like you know what? I'm actually leaving. So my parents were very sad that I was leaving, my mom dropped me off to the airport and she was crying, bawling her eyes out, she was not happy that I was leaving. But I think that was the first time she realized that okay he's gone, he's never coming back because then from there I came back and then went out again. So in a way I was happy that she already got that soft

You know, like a soft realization because universities like every four or six months you come back, you come back, you come back. So then when I had to move for the Netherlands, it became much easier for her that she realized, you know what, okay, this guy is not going to stay anyways. So it doesn't matter. But that was up till the first plane ride. That was it. Did you, did you have accommodation support bar from university? Did they come out for you? Yeah. Yeah. It was, told you the university was

James Doran (11:36.812)

very accommodating. was a very elite university in Turkey, which only had a predominantly Turk population. So they were really expanding their horizons by trying to get other people in. So we were the first experimental batch of Pakistanis who were coming in. The people above us, one year above, only had one Pakistani or two Pakistanis. The year above had no Pakistanis. So you could say they were the experimental batch, but they had to pay. We were the real experimental batch because we didn't even have to pay. We were just here on scholarship. So we were all there. The university gave us free accommodation to those of my friends who were at 120.

And for me, I, because we got full scholarship, I convinced my dad to flesh out shit loads of money for Canada. I told him that in Turkey, it's for free now, so you need to pay me good money to live in a good apartment, like good accommodation. So I got the best dorm that money could buy, thanks to the university. And there was a very fancy dorm, James, I'm not gonna lie. It was pretty cool. We had our own private kitchen, our own private bathroom. And I was like, this is the lightest. And I was so lucky that my

roommate just left the of the middle of the like two weeks into the semester. So the whole semester I had the whole place for myself. So that also really, really added a lot of fun to it. which part of Turkey was it you moved to? which city? Ankara. the capital. The capital. And that's exactly why, because my other friend, as I told you, from the whole 10 people who applied to didn't get in.

He went to Istanbul and Istanbul has two really famous universities. think one is Boz, Bozhi University, I don't remember the name, the other one is Istanbul-Bilki. And these two are famous for international, so they didn't get much scholarships. They knew people come there to study all the time. Ankara had two big universities. One was Bilkent and one was Mehtu. And Mehtu, or Othu they call it, that is also a very famous university in terms of its engineering and all of that stuff. So a lot of Pakistanis are there as well.

But because it's a public university, the fees are not that high anyways. So a lot of people go there as well. But ours was like, it all private campus. You can't get in without like a support, you know, like without someone authorization, all of that stuff. Yeah. And pretty cool stuff. We felt, we felt like we were rich when we were there, but we weren't actually. Amazing. then so, so you, you, you'd moved there and you'd gone back to Pakistan and assuming for work then once you graduated.

James Doran (13:56.194)

Yes, that really goes back down to, you know, your guinea pigs, James, your guinea pigs. So they don't know what to do with you. They just realize that, hey, look, we're going to get these people in marketing strategies so we can get more paying students because that's what the university does. That's all the university wants is just wants more paying students. But what they fail to realize was that if you bring in these people who don't know the language really well and you don't impose the language on them because it's an English speaking university,

when people graduate, are there jobs for English speaking internationals in a city like Ankara or like a country like Turkey? And the reality of our year was there wasn't at all. So out of all of us, think one or two maybe got jobs. The rest of us went back and we were like 30, 30, 40 people. We went back and the next batch was like a hundred people from our juniors out of which...

out of which, again, 10 people got jobs, the rest came back. The one after was also like 100-ish people. And from them, I had heard like 20, 30 people getting jobs. So by that time, the ecosystem was developing, the university was trying their best to get people convinced that, hey, look, you need internationals in your job, in your company, so do make it happen somehow. So unfortunately, I had to move back, and I tried very best for a few months to see what I want to do, look for good jobs. And I got lucky that I got into a management training program in one of the big

companies in Pakistan. So I got to work there for a few years, mostly market research and marketing supply chain. that those few years, if I look back now, they were quite long, but it feels like they flew by. Yes. know. It's a similar thing. My first job, it feels like a lifetime ago, but then it just went like, it just evaporated on me. I just missed my use.

I'm quite glad that I don't earn what I did there now because it wasn't enough when I graduated. Never enough. it's a lot of money and it's really not. Yeah, it's not enough. And I think that's one of the difficulties of moving abroad a lot everywhere. You always have to start from scratch. Unless you move in as an expert, right? As highly skilled worker. And sometimes I see in your podcast, I see guests who are quite on the older age side.

James Doran (16:16.654)

And then they talk about they moved somewhere and it makes sense because here I also see so many experts coming in middle aged, young families, kids already like five, six or sometimes 10. And they're like, here I'm like, yeah, you're probably on a very good settled compensation package. But when I'm places, I'm young, I have to make stuff work for me. And sometimes that also means starting from scratch. And that's exactly what happened to me when I moved to Netherlands again. so it's a good segue onto the Netherlands then. So

What was the reason for the move? I already know this after we spoke it off camera, but I want you to disclose to all our listeners your reason to move. Yeah, well, as I told you at the start as well, A recurring theme will be love or a woman of sort. So that was what happened in Turkey. And I told you she wasn't willing to wait. So when that happened and she went out of the picture during that same semester, which kind of doesn't really look

good on me as a person. Because I really like it was a relationship of a couple of years, man, like you need to be serious. You need to grieve a little bit. But I have a very love as much as you can. And once you're done, you're done kind of person. So don't fret over it. Don't no regrets, right? So when she left, she was like, you know what? I'm done. I can't do this. I don't think that it's just for work and doesn't feel like you can really come there.

All of them are very legit reasons I don't judge her at all, but at that time, of course, I didn't like her. I was like, shit, screw this. But the first class was 27th of January. I remember this really, really well because 27th of January was the first class and that first class, was Turkish 101. And I was so fortunate. And I tell this to my wife now. So the person I met there was my, is my wife now. And 2014, 10 years ago, 27th of January, we met.

and we just celebrated our 10 year anniversary this year, right? Of knowing each other because we were not friends. We would just know each other. I come in and I see this Pakistani guy that I played a lot of football with in the last few weeks because I just moved here and we all, Pakistanis just stay together. And he kept telling me, hey, do know these two Dutch girls, they speak our language. And I was shocked. I was like, what do mean they speak our language? They're Dutch. They're supposed to be Europeans, but they didn't look European. So that was also my first ever experience, which is very funny because I had so many Pakistani friends who were US citizens.

James Doran (18:39.886)

But the US is a country of immigrants. So you think of it that way. But you didn't think of Europeans that way. But I think Europeans, I just think white people in general. So I'm like, okay, but they're supposed to be Dutch. No blonde hair, no blue eyes. What's happening? And then I realized that one of them was from Afghanistan, moved here at a very young age. Other one was from Suriname, which is a partial colony of the Netherlands. And she also moved here when she was very young.

They're as Dutch as Dutch can be. They grew up in the system, they grew up in the culture, but you can see from their faces and of course from some of their demeanor that they're really not Dutch Dutch. So that was the first time I saw someone and I was like, And I had a fascination with the Netherlands for a very long time since 2010. The World Cup 2008, Armen van Buren, so music, football always kept me a bit close to the Netherlands. Lovidia. Exactly. Tiesto, Armen van Buren, Tredy Kors, it's like, it's all of them are Dutch. That's how it sounds like.

But so because of that, it was a good experience and I'm not the kind of person I am now. Even back then, I was always shy to start the conversation. And I think that in our podcast, we did that conversation in my podcast, that how do you network, James? So don't think that just because this was a girl and I broke up that I went down the normal road of asking her now that didn't happen. I was just in my own little corner, just looking at her from afar because we in our culture,

That's how you do it. It's a lot of games that you play off, did she see me? Did I see her? this, that, a lot of, there's a word for it in our language called Makhre and Nas, but I don't know what you can call it in English, but it's like, you know that game you play with each other. It's like a game you're playing. A bit of cat and mouse. A bit cat and mouse, but it's all about like all the ha ha ha, don't do it, don't say it.

the girl is playing more of a role of a person who is trying to be oblivious to it, the guy is playing the role of the person who is acting like, okay, she doesn't know or something like that. So we did that for long time because she was refusing to acknowledge me as a person and then I got lucky because her friend got paired up with me by the teacher. And she was saying to her, she was saying to her, you're gonna go down, know, like this.

James Doran (20:51.822)

This was 10 years ago, we were young, right? And she's making this L sign here and everything and then she replies back to us saying, no, you're going to go downtown. And I took it as a sign and we still disagree to this day. I took it as a sign as an opening. I was like, Sadaf, you talk to me that means. So now I know that I can talk to you. She's like, no, I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to my friend. And she still refuses to acknowledge that. But that was the type I actively started talking to her. Then I was like, okay, I see an opening.

Long story short, we had on and off for four years just a relationship of a friendship. So it was very difficult. In my eyes, I met her 10 years ago. I liked her 10 years ago and I wanted to be with her for 10 years ago. But in her eyes, that didn't happen until 2016, 2017 maybe. So three years later, she believes that it happened and we still argue about it to this day.

That's not true. married now, so it looks like you won in the end. You both won. Yeah. Yeah. You can't leave. In married life, you have to compromise. And I think we're just compromising. We're just saying, you know what? Whatever the other person wants to believe, it's fine. So that is the story there. And that also a lot of hiccups happen, but there's not a love podcast and an expert podcast. I don't want to really go into the details there, but it was a lot of an on and off thing, on and off thing in which we're trying to find each other, we're losing each other. And then I moved back to Pakistan.

Couple of years I was in Pakistan and again the same thing, same question as the first one asked. I don't see this working because you're here, I'm there, it doesn't make sense. And that gave me a lot of like trauma of sort, right? I lost one amazing girl because of this stupid reason. I'm not gonna lose another. So I tried very hard. I was like, okay, let me see what I can do. I was very young at that age. So being an expat and moving abroad for sponsorship is out of the picture.

because it's going to be very difficult for them to do so. So I thought, you know what, maybe I'll just squeeze in into a study program and then I'll see if I can get a job. So I got into into Tilburg University here because Bill Kenan and Tilburg have an association. So I also got a discount scholarship and then it was much easier because it was through university. So the visa process, everything is easy. I had to fly out for a day all the way to Islamabad from Karachi just to go give the visa and take them back the next day and then fly back.

James Doran (23:08.814)

for some reason they wanted me there instead of me just doing the normal thing of just applying it through mail. So I had to fly all the way there and stay the night at a friend's place and then come back. So that was a lot of fun and everything went really well. They didn't require any aisles or any GRE. That's why it was so easy to just squeeze in there compared to other universities. yep, acceptance letter came, came, flight was booked. I didn't have any money whatsoever to do what I need to do there. And my parents said that figure it out. You're the one who wants to go.

you need to figure this out because we don't have that much money to support you, especially as a student. I was like, I'm trying to work, I'm trying to do something, but I need your support for a while at least. So we tried to figure out a loan from a friend of my, like a dad of my friend. And then I had to pay off that loan in a year's time. So I took that loan and moved here. Nothing but debt on me to work with this, to study as a student and work here. But I got very lucky that the moment I came here,

Within a few weeks, I got a job offer for a data container role for Tableau developer because that was my expertise working in data for a couple of years. So it was a very shitty starting pay compared to what people should be getting. But hey, I couldn't complain because as you say, for me, it was my first time I rolled and first time amount of money I got in euros. So if I compared to my Pakistani salary, it was a lot. And I was like, this is a lot, but I didn't realize how much expenses here are here in the Netherlands.

But that was the start. That was the start 2019. Amazing. So did you move in with your then girlfriend, now wife at the time? What was your accommodation like when you first arrived? No, no. We are, because she's Afghan, I'm Pakistani, so we are still bit on the conservative side, right? So we couldn't move in together yet till we were married. So it was more like just dating and hanging out together.

And she got me this place on cheap, really cheap in the Netherlands. So I stayed here and that's where I continue to stay now. And now she's moved in with me and she lived with her mom who is also here in the Netherlands. So that's how the accommodation was here. We got lucky because we had someone here already that could arrange this for me because doing it from abroad is really difficult. Right now, many of mine from Turkey University.

James Doran (25:29.088)

He just is moving to Tilbury University again for his masters and it's 100 % scholarship for him because he's a very smart dude. And he was messaging me saying, what about accommodation? I'm like, I can't help you. I was just very lucky that I had a person here who could help me in terms of things. What I can do is I could ask around. So I asked around and everything and it got him connected to a lot of people. But at the end, what happened? He just said, a friend of a friend was leaving. So the friend asked me if I want to move in with them. And I was like, well, that's how it is. That's how life works.

So you can try it first. Yeah. does. is. Amazing. And which city in Netherlands are you in? I don't think we could do that. Yes. I am in Eindhoven. that's 20 right in the south. Right in the south, North Brabant, the home of Phillips, the home of ASML. I don't know if many people know that, but that is the thing the Netherlands is about famous for because of the whole thing. Stop tapping my microphone in. You can see it.

Yeah. the, the, the world is making right now, the whole AI boom that is happening is because of these people right here. And the whole of Idoan has become an expat hub of sort, thanks to these people. They're bringing in tens of thousands of Indians, Turks on, on a yearly basis, because that's where all the knowledge is. Incredible. well, I guess we, we now know your kind of origin story so we can get into the kind of living in these amazing places in the next section.

James Doran (27:03.884)

Welcome back to the podcast welcome section to all about being there. So I this essentially you've landed you've moved What's it like? So let's go back to to Turkey. So obviously You'd move for university you are this invitation of going, you know to the American's Canada or the states that didn't kind of come to fruition So you settled on what seems like an amazing experience in Turkey still so, you know, it's it's not a bad choice

what was that like when you arrived? said you went with some friends. Did you go out to do party? Did you, what was talking about your first few weeks? It was, it was fun. It was different, but not that different. think we really enjoyed Turkey because it was such a good East meets West place. So you had the liberal mindset there. You had the liberal technology to an extent compared to, Pakistan, of course, even Saudi Arabia. and.

but you still had that religiosity a little bit there, that you could hear the prayers all five times a day. You see people walking around who are just looking a bit more like you and also speaking the same language and the same culture in a way as yours, not 100 % of course, because Turks are very different from Pakistanis, but it felt that that tribal bond of religion really made it easier to move in there, right? So that always helps. And that has been the big.

difficult thing for me when I went to the Netherlands because I'm not a religious person in general but I realized the value these tribal bonds bring and that's a conversation we can have a bit later but in Turkey that was the feeling I got it was like you were in it's like you're in the same place but with different people so it was quite easy to gel in with people but to be fair I did not gel in with Turks as much as I would like because one I was more comfortable with Pakistanis so that's my weakness

But others also, the Turks, were also not that comfortable in our university, at least, to speak that much English. Okay. Yeah. So that became a bit more difficult. A friend of mine made a lot of Turkish friends, but he now speaks Turkish fluently. He even teaches Turkish. So he really put in the effort to learn the language and then become friends with people. Some of our other friends had Turk friends who spoke a bit of English, but it was a bit broken and everything. So we had international friends a lot because everyone spoke English.

James Doran (29:26.798)

Yeah, see, you do know some language, right? Yeah, you know some language, but in return it was a bit more difficult also, then the mindset also was a bit slow for me because I'm a fast talker, I'm looking for like an intense conversation, I'm looking for like a fast conversation and they're a bit more slow because they're like, you're talking too fast. We need to like translate in our head and we've been learning this language English since like one, class one of sort, right? So what, and we're four years old.

So we don't have that translation happening in our head. You say something in English, I know what it means. You say something in Urdu, I know what it means. Sometimes you say something to me in Urdu, I had to translate into English. That even happens sometimes. All the Urdu's by the time. So that happens a lot. But for them, it's the other way around. They listen to something in English, they have to translate it in Turkish, then think in Turkish and then translate it in English and then say back. And for us, it's interchangeable. Indians and Pakistani especially, we can talk in the...

two languages if they're fluent and interchangeably, we can literally add words here and there and we don't have to worry about the interchangeability because we grew up with both languages. English in school and Urdu at home or Hindi at home. So that really made it much, much easier for us. So that was one of the reasons I couldn't really chill much with the locals. So that was a culture shock that I didn't get to enjoy much. But the biggest culture shock I got there was of course, I'm not a drinker of sort.

It was due to religious reasons when I was young, but now it's just become habit. There's this reaches that says if you before, if till the age of 25, you don't get into any bad habits, quote unquote bad habits, you just don't get into them later on because you just don't feel it. I thought it's all about habits before I was 25. Yeah, before 25, right? That's what I mean. So after 25, you don't feel like doing it even if you want to do it. So I didn't smoke, drink, alcohol, cigarettes, vapes.

Occasional drugs as well, everything. I was just not into it. So because of religious reasons, but now I passed 25 and I'm in the Netherlands, literally the meat capital of the world. But I never tried anything because I just don't get interested in it. So when I moved to Turkey, that was the biggest culture shock I got because this was supposed to supposedly a Muslim country and I see alcohol available everywhere and I don't judge. I'm like, that's fine. But what bothered me the most was I saw a lot of Pakistanis dudes.

James Doran (31:45.262)

suddenly seeing alcohol for the first time. And they went and bought beers by the crate. And it was crazy to me that why do you feel so deprived in your own country that you come here and do these things? And they were all out for the next few weeks as drinking and drinking and going crazy. And I'm just looking at them and I'm like, well, what is happening? Why? Because in Pakistan as well, was surrounded by people who used to do weed a lot, but I never did it for religious reasons.

So I was always okay with hanging out with people who are high or drunk, but I never enjoyed it myself and I never saw the value in it. And now it's become more like a thing that I just never did it. So why should I do it? So that was the first few weeks for me adjusting to this new reality that, hey, okay, this is common here. This is normal here. How do I feel about it? What do I do here? And I don't want to go into the complete other end of the spectrum that not enjoy with people outside because I feel like, no, they're doing the wrong things. So I had to strike that balance of, hey, okay.

Let's make friends, let's talk to people and yeah, if they get drunk, they get drunk, we hang out with them, but only to an extent. If they get too rough and wild, we'll pull back a little bit because in the West, you guys were exposed to alcohol, I think from a younger age, so most of you. And I do say it with this, with a caution because you are British and the British are notoriously famous for being a bit more rowdy on the rowdier side. So...

In general, I've heard that... just raised the worst in the Brits, I'm not gonna lie. That's what I mean, so... It's still reasonable. In the Netherlands, at least, I don't see them on the streets. Out. Like, they do it in the bars, they're still in control. The Belgians also still in control. The Germans, I've heard, are crazy. But I never got to experience this myself. The Brits, I have seen with my eyes. I have seen it here. I have friends who live in the UK, and yes.

You guys go crazy. been to a few F1 races that Dutch can drink and the Dutch can party. But I think they just don't do it as often and do it at special occasions with Max Verstappen's racing or, you know, I'd say when Sweden, in Sweden, the Swedes are quite reserved apart from on Wednesday night and Friday night when they the binge quite a lot. But when Swedes go abroad, it's much cheaper to drink and they just love, love to drink. To say that is a generic term. A lot of my friends who are Swedish.

James Doran (34:09.409)

They can drink a lot and midsummer is just one big bender, you know, he's constantly having schnapps and like god This is like going back to university or college, you know, but I'm 30. What is this? You get the get the stereotype, okay Brits go abroad they just drink, you know one what you're a beers and get red drunk and get rowdy a cross-section of our society does that not everyone a cross-section

A lot of them are students perhaps, a lot of them are going just because they're fans of sport or whatever. It's fair enough, people can spend their first time what they want to do. A lot of Brits don't do that, but the problem is the minority represents the majority in every single nation. they've made the headlines because it's Do you know in Amsterdam they are slowly slowly banning British stans?

because of this issue of too much alcohol and being drunk on the strolls and everything because a lot of British stags, boy parties come and they just get drunk for whatever reason and I said we don't judge it's fine that you do it but it's becoming such a problem that the stereotype is becoming such a problem that the government of Amsterdam is thinking of doing something stupid like this that hey look we're gonna do this so the point is you guys can do it

The Brits can do it, the Dutch can do it, and the Dutch do it, but as you said, I think I agree with you, they do it more reasonably. Friday, Saturday, they do go crazy. So I'm like, they don't. If I go into the clubbing area, it's going to be full with people, drank, and my colleagues at work. But for some reason, it's like they know their thing. know how hold their alcohol. I think the same for you guys. You know how to hold your alcohol, that yes, you will go crazy, but then you will control, you will go back, and then you're going to sleep it off for whatever reason.

There it was very different. The Pakistanis were just going crazy because they didn't have it for the first time, right? And I think you can also speak from Katie's a candy shop, Yeah, you can also speak from experience. For the first few times you did it, you were not in control probably because it was the first few times you were realizing how to get drunk. So that was an interesting turn of events for me. I was pleasantly surprised as well as a bit morbid that is this going to be the next four years of my life? Where are my people? People who like to game, people who like to play sports, people who like to talk, people who like to...

James Doran (36:32.406)

Also just have fun with girls. for me, my addiction of sort was always girls. So as I told you, the story started back when I was 18, 16. So I always like to attach myself to someone else and make them the goal of my life. So if I have a girl to look forward to, then everything in my life moves in that direction. So for me, that was the thing. I was like, okay, this girl left me. What is my next plan? And then the next plan came up shortly in a few weeks.

the 27th of January when the new class started. So those are my first few weeks. Amazing. we've kind of gone all around the place with that, but that's amazing. So staying with Turkey, then what was it like in terms of the food culture? Turkish food is quite famous around the world and they have amazing food. How did that compare to what you were used to in your cuisine back home? Did you, you know,

mixed a lot of food in. No one says you had lot of friends from Pakistan. So did you cook lot of dishes that you had back home or did you go and explore the local cuisine or just other European cuisines that are available? Yeah, both. Mostly we cooked, frankly, for budget reasons. We can't afford that much. It was getting difficult in the first year. I was a bit more crazy. My dad, I would pressure my family that, look, I saved you so much money. I didn't go to Canada. You need to now give me more money.

So I used to order more and have fun more, but slowly, slowly our financial situation was also becoming a bit more tighter. South Arabia became a bit more difficult place to work. So we were tightening our belts a little bit. So my parents also like, just focus on tightening your belt a little bit. So we then switched more towards cooking at home a lot more Pakistani food with friends and everything. And it was much more fun, but that didn't stop us from enjoying and eating what we needed to eat. So we've had all the Turkish food and for me now still, well.

Not that much, but it still comes in my top five best cuisines that I like and enjoy. For me, the only problem was that it was not that spicy. And by spicy, I just don't mean heat, but I also mean flavor. So the Turkish food is more on the blander side. They really like the flavor of the meat to shine. They're like, this is the meat. Enjoy the meat and the tomato sauce. And you're like, there needs to be more. There can't just be meat and tomato sauce.

James Doran (38:54.158)

So that was our experience that it was very funny. We were actually yelled at and frowned upon and laughed at whenever we would ask for more spices when we would be in a Turkish restaurant. Because they'd be like, what, why? we're like, ajil, ajil, ajil, ajil, ajil, ajil, ajil, ajil, ajil, ajil, ajil,

crushed red chili and then we just dress it all over the food and it's just raw red chili. It's not even that tasty, but it just added a little bit more heat into the flavor. Yeah. some of my friends, used to like, like druggies, they used to keep a small box of chaat masala on them. Chaat masala, small box like, and then they'll be like, we would just spray it on top of anything we find. And I was like, what the hell is wrong with you guys? Why are you chaat masala with you? But that's, that was quite funny. So.

but still by far one of the best foods for me. I am biased, of course, because I lived there for so long. But if I could give a shout out to one thing that I really, really miss and enjoy still is Doner, but not just Doner, specifically the Unju Doner, which is in, it's a franchise in Turkey, so it's not really like a local place, but it's only in Turkey. So it's available in most big cities like Ankara, Istanbul, Antalya, Izmir, et cetera, et cetera.

but their style of donor was so good. And I recently found out from a Turkish colleague that it's called Hatay Donor. So it's a Hatay style donor, which comes from the region of Hatay, which I don't know where it is. But that is amazing because that donor was our comfort food. Whenever we didn't want to cook and we were low on money, this was the cheap eats that we could just phone, order, and the guy would deliver it to us at our place. And we would eat two two in a day because it one for us for like five liras or three liras or six liras.

And Turkey went through like a nose dive when we were there, right? So this was 2014 to 2018. So this was when Turkey went through a nose dive in their economy and the whole coup thing happened. So when we were there, it was for four and a half, for five Liras and a lira was around one dollar, two Liras. By the time I graduated, one dollar was at three and a half, four Liras. that's not even wow. Right now it's a 30 Liras. It's in a nose dive. And I got married in Turkey in 2021.

James Doran (41:20.686)

It was at $10, 10 Liras per dollar. And now it's at 30. My wife was like, why didn't we get married later? I was like, we weren't thinking at the time. Who knew? We were thinking it's going to go back up. can't time the market. You can never time the market. So it was comfort food. For five Liras, a couple of dollars, you get food that is so cheap and so filling with some fries in it. And a lot of memories surround that food with me and my friends. It's chilling watching TV, me and my friends having fun with each other in our own apartment.

So it's a comfort zone now. lot of gaming is all that matters. A lot of gaming. We had so many tournaments. We were the first people to... I brought my PS4 there so everyone would come to my place to play PS and everything. So it was a lot of fun. Moving forwards in Netherlands then, so you first arrived there, obviously you your now wife. But what was that like when you arrived? What was the food like? The culture, the language? Was everyone already tall?

Was it intimidating to you or was it just, you a new place and because you, the skills you've picked up from Turkey, you were able to adapt and, I guess, you know, find your way? To be fair, I think I agree with your latter part a little bit more. That getting to experience three different countries before I moved here. So Saudi Arabia, where I was raised and born, then Pakistan, where I went to school and high school, and then Turkey where I went to university.

it gives you a certain set of skills that you are open to change. So it becomes easier for you to adjust. And the Netherlands was a very welcoming country because everyone speaks English. So it wasn't as bad a streak where no one spoke English. So it was much bigger, much of a difficulty for me there and trying to adjust to them because we couldn't order properly. We couldn't get our stuff done. Even government runs.

to get our ID cards and all of that stuff was quite intense and difficult. We needed support from the university personnel. Here, everything I could do just to myself. I would just go to the town hall, pick it up, talk to them in English. Hi, hello. Yes, it would be nicer if this was in Dutch. They would be more comfortable, I suppose, but they also will keep speaking English, most of them. So it made life much more easier. In terms of Dutch people being tall, definitely.

James Doran (43:37.934)

I only heard it and read it in articles online, but my God, almost everyone is so tall here. Not just tall, but also slim. That bothers me a lot because Pakistan, most people are fat because we eat so much oily food and we don't do any physical exercise. Here, everyone is walking everywhere. Everyone is biking everywhere and they have this amazing thing in their diet called AVEG. And it stands for, it's in Dutch, stands for aardappel.

which means potato, meat, veggies and that is the staple Dutch dinner that almost everyone eats. People in the big cities try to be more fresh and global with having some pastas here and there but generally what they eat is this and it's such a healthy diet because you're having potatoes which are carbs, meat, protein and then vegetables, greens which are just fiber so it really

made them very slim and healthy and fresh and that bothered me a lot because I hate that food. I hate it with a passion. I love food a lot. I travel mostly for food. So it bothers me that I cannot have a healthy lifestyle when it comes to food and this is something I'm still struggling and trying to figure out. That okay can I reduce my intake but then eat whatever I want to eat or should I just eat clean food throughout the day what works for me and I still haven't figured out my body still hasn't adjusted. Five years here

I thought maybe the active lifestyle of the Dutch would make me a bit more slimmer and bit more healthier and fitter, but that's not true. I walk 15,000 steps every single day and I still don't lose weight because science, from science perspective, you just, you eat more if you do more. Your body automatically adjusts. You don't even know, you're not even conscious of it. Your body just adjusts. So you have to consciously just reduce your food. And that's, that's, that's very difficult. So

That was the biggest shock that I felt when I came here that everyone looked gorgeous, tall, slim, gorgeous. And of course, one thing and after living in the Netherlands and also traveling the world thanks to the ability I got by earning more money here compared to my previous endeavors, I got to travel the world a lot. And one thing I really am proud about in the Netherlands because now I've become Dutch as well myself, right? But also in general, like one thing that I

James Doran (46:01.312)

always was misguided by was their infrastructure. They might not be good at healthcare. They might not be good at taking care of their homeless people that much. There might be a lot of difficulties, but their infrastructure, so good. You drive on a Dutch road and then you drive on any road in the world, maybe barring Japan, I guess, you will never feel the same road ever again. You'll be like, my God, this is a different road. You...

There's the trains, right? And it's the bike paths. That's what all those are. That's what's incredible to me. Like the trains are so good. And, you know, the cycle lanes are amazing. Denmark is a great city, country with, incredible cycling and incredible train network. And so was Sweden. I mean, it's just like, how have they got it so right? And everyone else has got it so wrong. Like the UK is really bad at trains and, you know, making cycling accessible and safe.

Yeah, I think there's a simple answer to this, very simple answer, and that is population. Nothing else. Northern Europe has a very small population besides Germany, right? So, other than 17 million people. Denmark, couple of million people. Norway, five million people. Sweden, I think around 10 billion or under. Yeah, so less people that they can manage these things. UK is around what? 70 million. 70 billion. 17 or 17?

7070. 70. Yeah, for Great Britain or not. Exactly. Approximately. Don't quote me on that. It might change. And Germany is I think also around 80 or 50 million people or something like that. And Germany is not the same, although you can think of it as Northern Europe and everyone talks about German efficiency, but drive the road to Germany. Not the same as the Netherlands. Public transport to Germany. To be fair, it's very nice coming from a Brit that you think the Dutch systems are great.

but ask the Dutch and they're not happy with the public systems. It's very shitty. I always get very delayed, but then I'm biased because I went to Japan this year. Then after you go to Japan, public transport wise, nothing comes close again. Nothing comes close because there a train does not even delayed for one minute. It barely happens. I don't know the systems they have there. I don't know how they work. They have their own set of problems, but in public transport, they're very, very good. So

James Doran (48:25.73)

The Dutch have their good trains, no doubt, they can be improved. But their roads, one of the best in the world. think, as you said, maybe Norway, Sweden, and Denmark would come close because I've driven in Norway and Sweden and they had really good roads. But I have driven in France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Belgium. I've driven everywhere. No roads come close. No systems come close because they're a systems population. They think in aggregates. They don't think in individuals. And that's what reflects in their problems as well.

So this also was a good culture shock. They don't really care about you. They care about society. And that becomes difficult here. That becomes difficult because you won't think about you. In healthcare, they're like, no, you're not gonna get any hospital visits. You're like, why I want some hospitals? They're like, no, you don't need to keep those things open for people who actually need it. And you just have a headache or you have some pain. Sit at home. And people are actually bothered by this. They're like, what if it's something dangerous? And they have this very famous notorious wait and see approach that, hey, look, wait.

If it gets really bad, then we're going to take it to the hospital. Otherwise, just take some Panadol or paracetamol as they call it, very famous here. Take it and just sit at home. So that really bothered a lot of people, especially people like me who come from a country where if you have money, you get access to good healthcare. And here we do have money, but so does everyone else. So we can't pay our way forward here. So they're like, you would have to wait like everyone else unless you want to go for private treatments, which even with the amount of money you earn, it's going to be ridiculously expensive. So why do you want to go there?

So it's because it's a bit of a challenge and that's what I faced when my wife was pregnant because in Pakistan what my wife was going through was quite, it's an atypical pregnancy but she was throwing up a lot. And now in Pakistan it's quite easy. I asked my mom and she said if this happens, just take her to the hospital, get her an IV and she'll be fine because she just needs fluids in her body. She's throwing everything up. Here I had to go to the mid-vice.

who was like, no, you have to try these things first before I can refer to you to the doctor. And then when I go to the doctor, I need to talk to them. And then they have to refer me to the hospital and there she can get an IV. And they refused me the first two times. The third time I had to convince them that she is dangerously dehydrated. You need to let me go. And they were like, no, we need to find proof that she's dehydrated. Then they gave me a test for her to check if she's dehydrated or not. And then they saw that she was severely dehydrated. Then they allowed me.

James Doran (50:47.822)

to go to the hospital to get one IV and that was only once throughout the pregnancy. Never again. They were like, we can't keep doing this. You can't expect to be here every few weeks because you need to think, we need to find a solution. I'm like, there is no solution. She is going to be like this. They like, I figure something else out. So we had to figure out maybe force her to drink and force her to eat even if she didn't want to because she would be losing fluids. So that was a big of a very big culture shock that, look, and that was me already like three years into the three, four years into the country. And I'm like, what the hell is happening here?

because the first time parents, the first time going to the hospital as much or going to the midwife because they never had an opportunity. So it was very shocking how the system really works that you might think about it, yeah, of course it makes sense, but the best is also very individualistic. So everyone thinks about themselves a lot. But you come to this culture where they're like, yeah, individualistic is fine in your own private life, but in a public life in the public world with the public money, it's not individualistic.

We have to think for the collective. We have to think for the old people who have to use the systems. We have to think of the homeless people of my time. Right, socialist way. Exactly. And I've come to appreciate it because I was like, guess I'm looking at if not to have needed healthcare or things to work for me. So in my head, I'm like, it makes sense to have a socialist method for things which you can't choose, like the hospital you go to or which train you get or, you know, which water.

provides your house or electricity that should be owned by the government because I can't choose which one it is so why would someone profit when like it's a monopoly right so they would just put the price where they want so the government should make that in my head that makes sense but when it comes to what you're saying where you know the safeguard in the space for an emergency then I would kind of be a bit more like well okay I understand why people might want to go private that's me

when it happens to you in the personal level as you said then you can be like okay now I understand why people have an opinion. That's how is. that's how Where as everything you need to have the empathy you need to have experienced it before you can go yeah your argument is now valid. Exactly I agree 100 % and I think the issue is that most people are not aware and not emphatic enough I think.

James Doran (52:56.94)

that they don't realize it. And I don't mean that, look, be empathetic towards my wife a little bit, but also to the fact that during COVID, the hospitals were full and people still were refusing to stay indoors. They were like, no, we need to live. And you're like, be a little more empathetic towards the healthcare system. This is not done to protect you or the virus. This whole lockdown thing is done to protect the healthcare systems because they will collapse. You might be fine. 80 % of you might be fine, but 20 % of you will get.

dangerously ill and you will need treatment and the hospitals are already full. So we need to reduce the time so that the hospital gets some breathing space. But they're like, no, we don't need it. And the Dutch again, how collective they are that they were thinking in the collective mindset, 80, 20, 90, 10. So for them, it was a pretty simple numbers game. The doctors association actually came out with an open letter saying that you should not put these restrictions to save a few because most of the young people

are developing problems such as mental health issues, staying indoors all the time and isolated. So let it open and it's okay if some old people die. And you're like, you're reading this and you're like, have some empathy. But then the question becomes for what, for who? Should I have empathy for the old people who might die or should I have empathy for the young people who are screwed for life? Who should I have empathy for? So even that becomes a bit more difficult.

Yeah, so it's a question we're not going to solve in this period of time, is there anything else you want to discuss about your life abroad in terms of what you've noticed or your kind of the commentary you've had of, you know, experiencing life in, four countries now and kind of a balancing between different, whether it's, you know, Middle Eastern ways of life to, I guess, Eastern European ways of life to Northwestern European ways of life.

How have they all kind of blended? Have you kind of taken a bit of inspiration from each of them and how you live your life? I think if you would want to learn, you can learn a lot from me living in one country and I got the privilege to live in four. So definitely I learned a lot. I learned a lot about religion in Saudi Arabia. I learned a lot about community in Pakistan. I learned a lot about humanity in Turkey.

James Doran (55:14.316)

no matter how I feel about those people, one of the most humane people I've ever met in my life. And I learned a lot about society and progress and liberty in the Netherlands. So every country taught me something that I held dear to my life at that point or now. But it also showed me a lot about the problems that we're facing everywhere, which were constant. And that's funny, it was just constant, but it was over, so.

I apologize in advance because this is going to be again those kind of the better discussion that I want to have with you. In Pakistan I come from a privileged class. So there already is this class system there which is not the same as India. But it is you can say it's more entrenched or more subtle that you have the rich and then the very rich and then the very very rich and that the poor the very poor the very very poor and it's not based on cost sometimes it's based on your

race and based on your color but it can also be a hand dealt by God. So we were privileged enough to still be out under the upper middle class, the rich class and we used to have people working for us and we always took that for granted. So when I moved abroad to Turkey and I had to do everything myself it made me realize the amount of effort I took for granted. Definitely. But it also made me realize that no matter where you go sometimes you are a second-class citizen.

That's how I felt in South Saudi Arabia. That's how I felt in Turkey. And sometimes that's also I felt in the Netherlands because that's not how I feel in Pakistan. Although in Pakistan, I treat my own father, Pakistan, as a second class citizen sometimes, right? Which is very sad. But because I was on the powerful side, because of monetary reasons, I didn't feel this way. That's what I mean. That's everywhere in Saudi Arabia. Yeah. And in Saudi Arabia, there is legit racism, legit.

white superiority complex that they're like if you are white you earn 10 times that amount you're going to be earning as a brown person even for the same job that is becoming much less now in the middle east but it is still there that if you look at all the leadership positions they're all going to be either white or they're going to be arab very rarely you're going to see any brown person there and by brown i mean pakistanis indian bangladeshi which do make up a big portion of their population right so it it cannot be just chance

James Doran (57:39.692)

The numbers have to play a role if it was a chance, but that's not true. So you see that in Turkey as well, Turkish people consider us brothers. They do. And I feel the same, but I've seen blatant racism there as well because they were just tired of it. Some of them were overwhelmed. Some of them were just annoyed at the smell of the food that we cook. Some of us are annoyed by our actions and how we talk and how loud we are compared to how they are. They were looking at their social fabric.

getting torn apart by these new people. And this is exactly what's happening in Turkey right now with the Syrian refugees. A lot of Turks are really agitated at the government and everyone about how many Syrian refugees they hold. Even Turks living here in the Netherlands complain about Syrians back home in Turkey. But what they fail to realize is that your government is getting paid a lot of money by the European Union to keep these refugees because otherwise they will have to let these refugees go towards Europe.

So Europe doesn't want that. Europe wants you to keep them. So they're paying your shit loads of money to help house and take care of these people. Yet you're not doing a good job apparently that these people are resorting to weird things to keep their stomachs full or just doing bad things because some of them are bad people. So it is everywhere, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and even in the Netherlands, country which, a democratic country, a liberal country where you talk about liberal values, you see that subtle hint of always thinking that,

we are better than you and I am an expat. So sure, I don't feel it as much because I am open with my identity. I am an expat. lived, I living abroad, but my wife, for example, is a second generation. So she was raised here. So she's as Dutch as a white Dutch person. Yeah. But even they talk to each other like, we want this country to become a better place and inclusive for everybody, including people like you. And you're like, what do you mean including people like me? I'm Dutch.

I was raised here. Some of them are born here, but they just look different. So because of that, you also see this. is that kind of systemic racism and subconscious racism you might have? Yeah, and it's everywhere. It's everywhere. what I've realized, James, is I get why a certain population of the people will feel fear. And that doesn't mean it's okay. But I think it's very important for us to acknowledge it. Just like as you said, a certain population of the people, a population

James Doran (01:00:02.442)

in the UK are just bad at holding their liquor and we have to be okay with it. We can't deny it. We can't tell them you're not allowed to drink because you can't hold your liquor, right? So same with this. You can't tell them that you're not allowed to be like this. You're not allowed to be racist just because you're scared. No, you can't do that. This is something intrinsic. It's something biological that when you look at something not familiar to you, you are going to feel scared and threatened.

It is biological and exposure and growth really helps you but isn't that big of an ask from people? Every single person. Well I think a lot of think yeah, okay, it's maybe fight versus flight in that sense, you're saying, but I think you could be taught that the trigger of fear is not actually a fear. You shouldn't be scared of embracing diversity. You shouldn't be scared of having someone new come to you where you are because they're not a threat. You know, right now in the UK there's tons of riots happening this week.

Yes, I've heard. I've heard. It is awful. I've not seen anything so bad since I've been, you know, alive in this country on such a scale of blatant racism that's happened in this country and it is so shameful. I'm ashamed of my country because of it. It's not everyone, it's minority, but those people are giving their voice. They're doing all the work and there's amazing peace protests going on to counteract it,

just to say, we know we want people with, we're a country with a, with a checkered past of colonizing the world. And then, you know, that's the history of the UK. Now my ancestors are from Spain and from Ireland. So I don't know if I'm actually, you know, I'm not fully British, right? We go back to my grandparents and they grew up in, you know, mixed heritage families because that's what the country is. It's a country, at, you know, we have amazing people now at the Olympics representing our country.

who will have grandparents who aren't from the UK but they moved here for a better career, a better job, or better prospects. And now they've, you know, set other lives and we have these people and everyone's cheering for them and you've got these people who are, you know, cheering for football players who represent your country who, you know, like Raheem Sterling's to a Jamaican family. You know, if he scores a goal for you, you will celebrate him like tomorrow but as Jamaican family living down the road from you, you'll have a go at them which is utterly shameful and people should not.

James Doran (01:02:26.186)

not be like that and you know it's it's just it's just so annoying and it's mainly education we don't teach people to accept we don't teach people to or people aren't being exposed to acceptance people aren't being exposed to it's a good thing to have as many of your voices as possible you know embrace everyone that comes in yes you know be proud of your heritage but don't let that pride get in the way of hate or manifest itself in

You know, guarding things like that, it just really pisses me off really. I guess we can go into the final part of podcast because I think we've exhausted the middle. Yes, I think we have one hour plus now so we had a lot of fun.

James Doran (01:03:18.318)

Welcome back to section 3 of the podcast which is essentially a review of your time so ahead. My first question to all my guests is always if you can go back to when you first moved abroad and can give yourself some advice what might it be? Now you were 8 when you first moved abroad so maybe it's not a fair assumption to go to that young but let's go back to when you left for university to Turkey. If you can give yourself some advice of it doesn't have to change anything but just what might help you

I guess extract more from the experience or maybe avoid any mistakes you might have made.

But in that effort, I know I wouldn't, but if I could, I would like to do that. It's a very good point. Learning a language is difficult. I mean, when I was in Sweden, you had to put like six hours a week into Swedish for Immigrants, which is a government funded program. But you had to find three hours of an evening after work twice a week to do it, right? You're tired from working a full-time job like...

And then you got to learn and speak in another language. It's even more tiring and go to work the next day It's it's a big commitment to people throwing you have a new family like yourself. We'll get where you're find that time You know to socialize with people of your own culture your own language or your mother tongue Let alone trying to learn a little language to meet new people and maybe you're best infused to go hang out at the local park with your child and start talking to parents of Dutch kids and then you might make friends that way and then try and improve a language

But that's a very difficult thing to do because you've got your priorities and then you've got your kind of second layer of things. And you have a full-time job and do a podcast and everything else. So you're also like me, just finding no time. Plus you've got a kid. How are you doing it? You can't do it. I used to have this once a week Dutch teacher and it really helped my Dutch. Really, really did.

James Doran (01:05:35.764)

But then I just got exhausted after Japan. told him that I'm gonna start again after Japan, but then I never did. I'm like, you know what? I'm done. That was April. two or three months gone by and I wanted to restart it, but I was just like, don't have the headspace for it. My wife's like, you should start. I'm like, you're Dutch. You stopped to me in Dutch. But this is also a separate problem that apparently multi-culti couples face because I asked this to a lot of multi-culti couples.

They say that we can only talk to each other in English even if we know each other's language now because that's how we met. So now she's refusing to talk to me in Dutch because she said I don't know you in Dutch. I only know you in English. And like that doesn't make sense. That doesn't make sense. But it's true. People have different personalities and different languages, right? Exactly. Of how you learn it. So maybe you might not like your wife in Dutch. Yeah, but I need to learn the language.

Exactly. But that's what we're by learning. Learn as much as you can. Squeeze it out because you never know. guess as your child starts to learn you might pick up more. Can you like read bedtime stories in Dutch or like go through learnings? Because you're probably a similar age of language level, right? Your language age is maybe the same. You're both toddlers. Yes. That's what everyone says.

And you have to like break the stigma of, yeah, I mean, I'm 30, but I'm actually three in Swedish. exactly. Exactly. Yes. That is the plan that I'm going to return more in Dutch. we have to see. We have to figure this out because I do want to learn this language, not just to make friends and integrate, but also in general to just be, it's also good for my job. It's also good for my future prospects to just know the language. It's just too much effort, James. As he said, it's just too many things at once.

So that's why I want to go back in time and tell myself to do this so that I don't need to do it now. When you had time when you were younger. Exactly. the thing is when you're older you're wiser but you have no more time. yes. But some people who do, a friend of mine, a very good friend of mine, he's fluent in six or seven languages and he just keeps learning. that his son? Yeah, but he wants to learn more. He still has Russian on his list and whatever have you. So he's going to go to the 10 or something and he's not even 30. It's for some reason. people have the gift.

James Doran (01:07:48.87)

Apparently once you've learned another language you unlock learning methods to learn languages faster I think apparently not for me I I know three four languages, but I don't know any system because I'm shit at all of them. So so like so For instance like Dutch German Swedish Danish they're all quite similar as you know, right? So I'm probably get what by in a lot of them. Yeah pronunciation changes or the spelling changes, but you go you read and write them. Yeah, bye Yeah, you just don't fluent

You might be to get fluent faster same with like Spanish and Italian Maybe Portuguese. Yeah. Yeah, the south French. Yeah, the south and the north. It's like the same language language families indeed I'm going forward then if you would give some advice to someone who wants to go and study in Turkey What might you give them to help them experience their life? Would it be go find that incredible Donner or would it be adds down? but I Would recommend anyone going to Turkey

have your priorities straight right now. The country is in a mess. If you're going there for a better life, I would say do check on that. Because as expats, we make a very big decision, right? We make a sacrifice of sort. We leave our comfort zone, we leave our families, some of us, and we also leave our culture behind. And almost always, it's for better opportunities, not just for fun. It's usually for better opportunities.

I think the only demographic who chooses to move to another country for fun would be the Western demographic in which a lot of Westerners move to, for example, Japan or Sweden. They do it by thinking, you know what, it'll be fun for me to do something like that. But in general, people move because they're like, you know what, in my current situation, I'm okay, but I want to get better financially, economically. So Turkey would be a very difficult place. The country itself is right now on the precipice of

of economic slowdown and if you go there, you will be working hard for money that might lose its value anytime soon. So I don't know if I would want to advise anyone moving to Turkey for better opportunities, but in terms of culture, in terms of a visit, in terms of just supporting that economy by going there and spending your money, one of the best places you can ever go to. And we are planning to go there next year again because we miss it so much.

James Doran (01:10:13.902)

I guess it's quite a big part of your kind of story with your wife as well and your family and all your friends. It's a great, it's forged who you are and your personality has come from Turkey. I also got married in Turkey because of the same reason. So we chose on purpose to get married in Turkey in 2021 because we were like, that's where our story began and that's where the next chapter should also begin. So we brought all of our families to Turkey and we got married in Istanbul. That's so nice.

I guess I just want to thank you for your time, coming on this, you know, taking time out of your long day where you could be learning Dutch or being with your family or, you know, working on your own projects. So thank you for agreeing to be on this and sharing your story, which is an incredible story and warm, full of great anecdotes and very deep, I guess, cerebral moments of, you know, why systems work and why this should be better. It's been great fun.

It's it's been one to improve my expand my view of things. Thank you for sharing that and if you could give a quick I guess Trailer to your podcast and where people can find you Yes, thank you so much James for everything I genuinely think you're a great listener because I am a talker and in some people's word I'm a great great talker like you're a great listener, so I love talking and

I rarely I see anyone who can easily juggle the conversation so nicely and provide their input and keep the energy level so high than you. that's why we've been talking for almost two hours now. It's a testament to your skills as a great listener. So thank you so much for that. About my podcast, I think your episode, this episode is a very, very good trailer in itself of what I do in my podcast, right? Because these are the conversations I like to have on my podcast.

I like to talk to people, like to challenge views, I like to discuss ideas, I like to become more aware of why we do what we do. And I think that always happens only one conversation at a time. So sometimes it's going to be conversation with a person like you, sometimes it be conversation through WhatsApp with my friends, and sometimes it's going be conversation with myself, in which I just walk through what I'm thinking. And those are the things I usually do. It's called the Weekly Wassal with Ahad, and I'm also on other platforms under the name Ahad Good Honey.

James Doran (01:12:37.026)

And of course, I'm going to share the links with you so you can put them in the description. yeah, that's about it. Thank you so much for having me. Always know, and if you haven't enjoyed the podcast and you have found some new information you wish to share with your friends, then do that. Please do forward it on. Please do like it, please subscribe and follow and all that fun stuff. And if you want to be a guest on the podcast, in touch. could.

be sharing your story and your adventures about living abroad. So hopefully we'll see you next time for the ExpertPod.