James Doran (00:06.264)

So hello and welcome to the Expat pod. My name is James, your host. I'm joined by Debbie. Debbie, if you'd like to give us a quick introduction on where you're from, where you've lived and what you do, that'd be great. Great. Well, thanks for having me. So hi, I'm Debbie. I live in Australia. I moved to London about 18 years ago. Now I'm back to being in Australia again. And I've worked in marketing for my career and in media, publishing and tech.

Wonderful, I'm sure we'll unpack your journey to the UK throughout the podcast.

James Doran (00:47.054)

So welcome to section one of the podcast, all about getting there. So Debbie, this is where I try and get my guests kind of, you know, inspiration for wanting to live abroad and then how they manifested that in certain ways. So let's go back to before you moved, why did you want to move and why the UK in particular? Yeah, so I always had that pull to go to London. Like it was always there, I think as an Aussie.

It's definitely one of those rites of passages that a lot of young Australians do is like, take that, you know, working holiday visa opportunity and go to live in the UK and travel around Europe. So that was very much, very much my draw. I'd gone and done a couple of contiguous, so the 18 to 35 bus trips around Europe.

you know, spent some time in London as well when I did those and, you know, that just really solidified the fact that I wanted to go over there and live there for a while. yeah, that's how it came about was really that pull to go overseas and, you know, experience, know, different country, different life and you get to travel a lot as well. was a key drive. Incredible. once you kind of experienced it on your your tours then.

What was the next step to go, yes, I've been, I loved it. How do I move? What did you do? What did you search for? Did you speak to people who've been before? Yeah, I did. actually, even before I did those tours, I remember talking to somebody that I worked with. when I was in my late teens, early twenties, and they'd lived over in London and it was probably the single best piece of advice I'd been given around traveling, which was...

because my background is marketing and I was sort just starting out in my career. And they said to me, get a few more years of doing marketing under your belt before you move to London, because then you'll be able to land a job doing marketing, which will pay more. You know, if you go now, you're probably going to end up working in like a pub or a bar, which obviously there's nothing wrong with that, but it's, you know, a totally different experience. And.

James Doran (03:00.643)

You know, I took that piece of advice. got a marketing job in Sydney. I worked there for six years and it really was like the best thing was getting, you know, that sort of workplace experience and being able to like build my skills up and then be able to transfer them over to a role in London. so that was key. So that was, that was a big part of it was building up my, my marketing expertise. And then it was also around doing research. So.

This is, know, early 2000s, I moved to London in 2006 and that was pre-Facebook, pre all the social media. So there wasn't like the wealth of information, the fingertips that there is now. so it was talking to people. It was reading books and you can devour most of like the lonely planet books that were out there, especially around moving to, moving to London and what you should do. and yeah, just really.

took in as much information as I could to be able to start planning properly for moving over there and setting things in place. Incredible. Yeah, I love those books. I've got a lot of them, which are half read because they're quite useful just to reference quite a lot when you're going somewhere. But yeah, when I moved to Sweden, got a few for the Nordic countries for sure. That's really good advice as well about spending some time getting marketing experience. I think that's a very good point. think often the younger you are, the more...

react if you are to go and want to live somewhere, but thinking about actually you're right in doing so in, you know, looking at the holistic point of view and going, what will might better your chances of, you know, having a more comfortable life and your new experiences rather than, you said, you know, having to try and make ends meet because London's very expensive. It's an expensive city. and if you, it's pretty hard to afford a comfortable life and explore if you are doing, you know,

Hospitality work, for instance, unfortunately, it doesn't pay well. So unless you've got parents who are bankrolling you or other forms of income or working three jobs, then it might be difficult. So yeah, I think that's a very good point to make. And that's the reality of it. It is really expensive, and it's getting worse, especially rent. I think, you know, for me, like hospitality has never been in my personal jeets. It's in family members, they work in hospitality and they love it.

James Doran (05:23.45)

but to me, like that's not my life. And so the sort of having to like call pints and a bar, you know, I wouldn't have stayed in London very long if that was, know, what I ended up doing for work. So I'd still be, you know, going over with, you know, what's the skills in like my area that I wanted to focus on from a career perspective. Yeah. It ended up being like this thing that I have to do. Completely. And that's, that's, that's really important. And some people might be the opposite. They might love.

love the Australian side, but as you said as well, it might be perfect for them to go and find their feet that way whilst working as an intern somewhere and getting experience a bit earlier in life. Everyone's different, but think in your case it was a good advice you had, which is wonderful. So then before you moved, what once you were applying for this working holiday visa?

What was that process like? How did you find it? What did you have to do? Yeah, to be honest, I can't remember too much about that visa process. At the moment I know it was quite straightforward because it was just for a working holiday. And they were at that time relatively easy to get. I had to wait, it was like six or eight weeks or something like that from the time that I applied through to when I was actually accepted.

There were like some key things around it though, which was, you know, making sure that I had a minimum amount of money in my bank account. part of the visa process was you had to open a UK bank account, which at that time I was able to do through one of the Australian banks. had a relationship with HSBC. So I was able to open a bank account before I even left Australia, which was great. I saved up like the exact amount of money that the UK government

required to be like the minimum, which I think at that point was just under 2000 pounds. And it was for what was supposed to see through your first six weeks, living in the country while you're like finding somewhere to live and getting a job. wish I'd taken more. deciding that was definitely, you know, a learning way. Definitely the money doesn't stretch as far as what you think it's going to. but yeah, so it was very much like once I made the decision that I was going to go, was saving.

James Doran (07:44.436)

saving to make sure I had the money. It was saving for a ticket as well. I also did things like, I made my mom, power of attorney for me. So that anything that had to be dealt with in Australia, like the related to, my bank accounts or anything like that, she had the authority to speak on my behalf because again, this is before, you know,

international phone calls, we came free with WhatsApp, you know, it was very expensive to, you know, speak between UK and Australia. So doing that was also good as well so that I knew she could, you know, to deal with anything that came up, you know, that I wasn't able to deal with when I was overseas. So it was those, those little things. And then figuring out what I was going to pack and take with me.

as well. knowing that I was going overseas at that time for at least two years and having like one suitcase to sort of fit everything that you're wanting to take over with you. That was a challenge as well. Did you have a kind of priority list? A raincoat, for instance? Yeah, absolutely. I wish I did. Yeah, I moved in the summer, so I moved in the British summer. So I arrived in June.

And I actually, what I did do was I didn't take any of my winter clothes at that time. I left a bag behind, all packed and ready to go. And I had my mom ship it to me once I found somewhere to live, as soon as the weather started to get cooler. So I did have that initial bag that I took over with me, which was more sort of focused on summer clothes and then had that second sort of shipment that was coming over, you know, a couple of months later that had.

had more clothes in it, which was also a really good idea because it meant that, you know, I didn't have to worry about taking absolutely everything like a raincoat and winter coats as well as, you know, trying to fit, you know, all the summer stuff and everything into. then before you moved, had you kind of found accommodation for your first few nights? Was it a hostel or something? Or did you find somewhere else like friends from home or? No.

James Doran (09:56.619)

Yeah, I was really lucky. So one of my friends was living in London and had been living in London for a year. She moved over before I did and very kindly offered for me to stay in her flat share with her. So I ended up sort of sleeping on their bedroom floor for the first six weeks that I was in the UK until I found my own place. So that was actually,

That was great. The one idea somebody there, it was a very good friend. And two, fact that they opened up their home to me and her flatmates were really accommodating as well and really lovely too. That was like a really nice soft landing in London, not having to deal with hostiles and under that pressure to find somewhere really quickly and spending a lot of money on accommodation, which is super expensive in London and having.

Having somebody there to take me in was great. Perfect. Was there anything else you had to do before you moved? Did you have anything to sell in Australia or an apartment to give up or anything like that? Or were you free of any ties? Pretty free of all ties. I moved when I was in my early 20s, so I made the choice to live at a higher hotel. I overseas to help with saving money. I that was about it.

another big thing as well. So not moving out and being able to save was great. I owned a car and I didn't sell it for a few years actually. I didn't sell it until I knew that I was going to stay in London longer term. So I wanted to keep it if I was going to come back within a year or two years. And my mom ended up driving it around. She sold her car and drove mine around for a while I thought because it was there.

you know, so why not? that was really good. I keep from that perspective. think the hardest thing that I had to do, it's sort of maybe I was thinking my job. I had a job that I loved. I'd been there for six years, know, great friends with, know, the people I'd worked with. It was a lot of fun. And, you know, if I didn't have like this, you know, sort of pull to go and live overseas.

James Doran (12:13.07)

you know, experience London, I probably would have stayed there a lot longer, but being that was the hardest thing was like walking away from a job that like I really bumped into, you know, complete unknown. They're wonderful. is there anything else you kind of needed to do before going abroad or do you want to kind of move on to the next section? Yeah, I don't think there was anything else. Obviously UK, so it's really lucky I didn't have to be.

you know, vaccinated like you do with other countries for, you know, different things, especially if you're moving somewhere like Africa or into the tropics and, know, places like that. You know, not having to learn another language was also great. And it was English and, you know, that was, you know, it made it a lot more easier as well. So yeah, there wasn't anything else that, that I had to do that's all moving. Yeah. It's pretty, pretty straightforward at that time. Wonderful.

Well, then we'll see you section two.

James Doran (13:13.646)

So welcome back to the podcast and welcome to section two of being there. So Debbie, is essentially a kind of

account of your time living away from home, in your new home. So you went from Sydney to London, you know, on the surface, quite similar places, English speaking, quite large cities, lots going on, different climates, that's probably the main thing. But when you arrived, what was your kind of first impression like? Yeah, so I actually really vividly remember

like the day that I arrived in London for the first time. And probably because one of the headlines of the newspaper was like, London's in a heat wave outside of Orton's like 23 degrees. Like, what are they talking about? This is crazy. And made a joke about it with my friend and she was like, no, you don't know what's about to hit you. And, you know, and I think that was...

It was a real interesting sort of 48 hours, realizing that 24 degrees, she's in London, it's almost the equivalent of 40 degrees in Sydney. The fact that nowhere had air conditioning, there was no sea breeze to cooling you down at, you know, at any point and, you know, just how hot the tube gets. you know, I think that was like a first sort of like, you know, my goodness, like, okay, it gets, it gets hot here.

As you know, the bricks love to talk about weather for sure. And you know, the same thing happened, you know, winter, you know, it was so cold, but you know, the clothes that I had, you know, brought over from Australia with me, they just weren't warm enough either. So it was like really adjusting to, you know, different climate from that perspective. But those first couple of days, like that very first day that I was in London, you know, I with my friends and her flatmates and.

James Doran (15:13.068)

We had lunch by the river in Hammersmith in one of the pubs. And that was like my first introduction to like pub life in the UK and how great it is on a hot, sunny summer's day. There's nowhere else in the world that's better than London on like hot, sunny summer's day for sure. And sitting outside in the beer garden next to the river. it was just like a really lovely sort of like first

interaction into the country from that perspective. And I'm so pleased that it wasn't gray and rainy and miserable. And I did get one of those as I learned over the next 60 years. Very rare summer's days in the UK is like my first day being there. So I'm really happy about that. Well, yeah, you were very blessed as far as you might have brought the weather with you from Australia. I guess it was winter for you back then, but probably still warmer. Yeah, we don't get heat waves often, but when we do, the country

It's like the human body, we go slightly too hot, we stop functioning as light as you go, we stop functioning. So we have to be like, we have a sweet spot of temperature about 10 to 25 degrees. imagine that. Exactly. And I mean, I have the reverse now. It's like we're here in Australia now and I'm freezing. I'm colder than I ever was in the UK. There's nothing that is set up from a heating perspective here. There's no central heating. There's none of that. So I think it kind of got that reverse.

culture shocker, you're being so used to how great things are in winter in know, freezing, well freezing in Australia now, like even though the temperature is about the same here as what it is in the UK right now. yeah, definitely different adjustments. Sure. Wow. And then, so you said you spent your first six weeks living in a friend's kind of lounge floor. Yeah. In those six weeks, what were your kind of key

I guess, objectives. Was it find a job first before finding an apartment or find an apartment before finding a job? Yeah, it was definitely find a job first. That's not how it ended up happening. I ended up finding somewhere to live before I found a job. I actually found it a lot harder to find a job than what I thought it was going to be. I thought, it's going be really easy. I'll turn up and let's do It'll be like, time to work. That wasn't the case.

James Doran (17:38.324)

It was also back in the days before like laptops were everywhere, know, smartphones didn't exist. And I'd have to go, you know, I'd have to walk to the internet cafe, you know, once or twice a day to look for jobs and apply for jobs. you know, do all of that. wasn't that sort of immediacy of what we have now. LinkedIn wasn't there. So it was like having to a job and the old school way to an extent.

That was different, getting lots of rejections from that perspective. And I ended up, quite fortunately, I got a job that was a temporal. think it was supposed to be for either three or six weeks. And then that ended up being the company that sponsored me and the reason why I ended up staying in the country for as long as I did. So I was really lucky that I took that sort temporary position.

and I think it was pretty much within a week of, of that, it was a few days before I got that job. I'd also found, a flat share as well, which, was in Barron's Court in London. My friend that I was staying with, who didn't have a snitch. So it was at least one stop down on the tube, from the people that I had to get to know in those six weeks as well. So, so yeah, and I was really lucky from like a flat share perspective, I only looked.

I think at one or two places and the people that I ended up moving in with, I ended up living with for.

Robert was close to three years and still friends with one of them today. So that was really lucky that I landed on Roxy with the flatmates there. Incredible. What was your impression of your first time working in the UK compared to Australia? was that like? Was there a work culture difference as well as an actual country culture difference? Huge.

James Doran (19:43.854)

Probably didn't realize it straight away. I think it kind of hit me a little bit sort of, you know, further into work life. And, you know, I mean, probably the one thing that does stick out of my mind is like how many cups of tea is like, know, Brits drink every day in the constant tea rounds that, you know, we're going around and there's a non-tea drinker. Like, I really like...

felt a little bit sort of on the outer from that perspective, not always having to answer like, why did you do tea? That was interesting. I think it was also, even though I was working in publishing, the company was great. It was a lot more structured than what I'd been working in. I'd been working like a media company in Australia.

which is bit more relaxed and sort of the Australian culture from a work perspective. You know, at that time it's changed a little bit now, so it's like now I'm back and working in it as well, but you know, very much Australians, you know, work to live. Whereas in London, and you kind of get the reverse a little bit where it ends up being a bit more like loop to work in some instances. But I think the other thing that really hit me from a

you know, work perspective was how much everybody go out together as well and how much like the pub culture is intrinsic in the workplace as well. It's like, let's go for a pint, like let's go for a beer. And you know, that's what people would do in the evenings after work, whereas Australia, where a lot of people drive to work and don't get public transport all the time.

A lot more of that was focused around like in the evenings, you know, you'd be playing sport or you'd be catching up with friends. It wasn't, you know, with your work colleagues at a pub, is, you know, kind of, you know, London life is very much, you know, from like Wednesday, Thursday, Friday evenings is generally, you know, if you say to somebody or just shout out in an office, does anyone want to go for a beer? There's always somebody who's going to say yes. So, I think that was the,

James Doran (21:58.734)

I think that was kind of a big sort of shift as well. Well, yeah, that's very, very true. think of British culture of going for a pint after work, especially in cities where you don't have to commute by car. So you can get away with having a few pints after work. I think I'm more on the sports side of my evenings, but when I was younger, be on the of the beer side. So it kind of mixes as I've gotten older, I've kind of transversed to...

to wanting to spend more time exercising as I'm getting older. But so kind of you, you done your kind of first six weeks, you found a job, found a house to live in. What other kind of things in your first movie year or something did you, did you find a bit difficult or find a bit interesting from the perspective of living in London? Yeah, I think probably when you're thinking about moving overseas, I wouldn't

you know, going with no expectations is like the mindset to go with. that's kind of, you know, the mindset that I'd went with, I'd went with like, I want to be in London. I had like visions of walking over cobblestones and you know, things like that, which I did, you know, heading to Cobble Garden was like one of the first things I did when I moved to London. Big bath there amongst the cobbles. But, you know, it was very much more about like, being open to

you know, saying yes to a lot of things. I think that was sort of the key thing for that first, you know, few miles of the sun, especially in the first year in London. It's like when you're getting to know people and they're like, come to this party or do you want to come to dinner with my friends or, do you want to go to this event? It's like saying yes to it because if you're not doing things like that, then you don't get to meet other people and you're not building out like your social network. And, you know, that was...

That was really important. And I made a very conscious decision as well, not to be one of the Australians who move from Australia and move into an Aussie flat share. That happens a lot. There's nothing wrong with that. A lot of people have had a great time living overseas with their friends or country folk. But for me, it was very much like,

James Doran (24:19.374)

That's not what I want to do. I'd want to go overseas and I want to experience living in a new country and I want to meet different people. want to meet the locals. I want to meet other people. And for me that really started from those first few weeks that I was in the country and thinking about where I was going to work and where I was going to live and how I wanted things to be. So nothing really shocked me.

too much in the first sort of first few months. Probably outside of like how busy the were, I think getting used to traveling on the tube to work, think was definitely an experience and how crowded that was. know, well, I guess the other thing is also like just being a bit more street smart. You don't have to...

have that sort of self-awareness and sort of, you know, street smarts around you in Australia. But you definitely do need to to make it something to, you know, to be aware of. And unfortunately, it's becoming more important over the last 10 years as well, but like being aware of your surroundings, you know, you're not just like putting your bag over the back of your chair, which is very common in Australia, you know, being aware that like, like, think puppets and, you know, thieves unfortunately exist and...

part of traveling. So being a little bit more switched on from that perspective, I think that took a little bit of adjusting, you know, at the start as well. you, were you fouled of, of, of any big property of, of F, which made you kind of change your mind or were you, did you experience it for friends or anything from a firsthand experience? No. Yeah, I was certainly lucky I didn't.

and again, that came back to the, some of the advice that I got before I moved, to the UK too. And, I was actually might've been a friend when I first moved to London said to me, I'll get a handbag that has a zip because it makes it harder for people who want to pickpocket you to actually get into your bag. so ever since that day, I even to this day, I still have a handbag that has the zip on it.

James Doran (26:37.134)

and I think that's kind of served me well, both in London, but traveling in other places. And when I did one of those Kentucky trips around Europe as well, we were on a bus in, in Rome, sort of our tour group, just a public bus. And one of the girls on there got pickpocketed and was, it was like very easy for them to do it. And, you know, in her bag, it was sort of like up under her arm with the way that.

you know, they sort of distracted her and were able to pick up at her. It was quite impressive actually, but I think it's, you know, once you're aware of like what can happen in a crowd, I think you become a bit more aware of like your belongings and where things are. And, you know, I've had friends say like, I'm going to be careful of like who's stood behind you or, you know, things like that. So you're very fortunate to have like people around me who spot things and you know, the same thing, but

me when I've been out with friends as well, or something like, you might just want to watch that person over there, who seems like they're sort of icing or they're standing a bit too close to you when you're at the cash void and things like that. So it's just, having that awareness and being smart. Yeah, that's a very good point and very great advice as well for anyone, coming anywhere, know, people are, especially in the world at the moment, there's a lot more disparity of wealth and therefore probably more desperation just to make ends meet. So we'll resort to.

having to survive, which is unfortunate. When you lived abroad then, was there any stereotypes you experienced of people towards you as an Australian, but also in reverse to British people? Did you see stereotypes that you had or did they change? think from a British perspective, they're also a little unprepared for the different classes that there are in the UK and actually

I thought that, you know, before I moved over there, that some of the stuff that you see, obviously on TV and things like that, that that's just a bit sort of, you know, dramatized for like the show that you're watching, but then actually to see, you know, that it does exist, like that class system is there, it is prevalent, not just from like a social perspective, but also in the workplace, you know, as well. So I think that was a, that was a little bit there. think definitely, you know, the whole,

James Doran (29:00.834)

you know, East London and, know, company Kings and Creeds or things like that, you know, it's great, like knowing that they're real. think that was more the, you know, the thing is that, realizing that actually, especially in London and probably across the UK as a whole is that there isn't like one stereotypical Brit. There are so many, you know, people there and people are different if they're in

North London, South London, East London, West London, it's so diverse and such a massive melting pot of not just, know, Brits, but actually people from all over the world. And I think that kind of like blew any sort of real sort of stereotypical what I thought a Brit would be out of the water because it's, you know, it's so much more than, than any one type, which, which was great.

And then from an Australian perspective, I think that it was always a lot of bad time, whenever the ashes was on for sure. think that was definitely, think that it was always a lot of talk around that when it was ashes time, lot of sports chat. But yeah, I'd never felt, know, I was being labeled for being Australian or anything like that. You obviously, you know, have the,

The Mickey's taken out of you for sure at different points. But you know, I used to give as good as I got. you know, I think that's part of the culture as well. It's that banter that exists and you know, there's such a great relationship between the UK and Australia, but it's, you know, it's very friendly and it's a lot of fun. yeah, so there wasn't, yeah, don't, the only one labeled me and I certainly tried not to label other people.

Definitely. It's very good point you mentioned about sport because it's the one thing I was going to ask you about was I had a little person on the podcast who went to, she was Irish and went to live in Australia and she's saying how she kind of started watching rugby because of it that that's how she would make friends to be watching rugby. Now Australia's got quite a big heritage of rugby and so does the UK and I guess when the Six Nations are on or when the World Cup's on or anything.

James Doran (31:23.79)

And you might go and watch a match and you just become so patriotic. I don't know if you experienced that, you were Australian friends did when Ever England played Australia in anything, it's football or rugby or cricket or netball maybe as well, because it's quite a big sport now in both countries too. Yeah. And I knew it didn't matter what sport it is. think it's quite a general thing for Australia and also I figure

Also for the Brits as well is that, you know, if Australia's playing and you're an Australian, it's definitely if it's against, you know, a British team, you know, you're super patriotic, you know, towards Australia. And actually a lot of the time, especially the first few years that I was there as well, it was like, if, know, if, you know, England's playing anybody else, you you support whoever they're playing, not,

you know, even if it's not Australia, think that rivalry is so intrinsic that, you know, you, there's like within you, you can't support England, you can't support the Brits. It's just not a, it's not something that you're brought up to, you know, to be if you're Australian, it's such a, such a strong sort of, you know, core that runs through all of this. but actually as my time sort of there, you know, carried on, found myself like,

recording England at the Euros and things like that as well. Like I watched some of the highlights this morning of like the match that was on last night as well. I'm very happy that England made their way through the quarterfinals to the semi-finals. I really do hope it comes home. I think that would be great, trying to get caught up in that as well. But yeah, to this day, I will never support England if they're playing Australia. You haven't been turned. But I will now quite happily.

of playing someone else. yeah. I mean, the point of supporting anyone but England is also happens in the British Isles too. So the Irish or Northern Irish will support anyone but England, the Welsh do and the Scots definitely do. So, you're not alone with- absolutely. I'd be- Sorry. No, go for it. I had finished, sorry. No, I was going to say that you don't have to be lucky. I saw her on-

James Doran (33:46.862)

I think it was quite early on when I was over there, there was like a friendly match where Australia was playing football. So was a soccer rules against somebody. wasn't, and it wasn't what I wanted to like English or, you know, our nation teams. was like another country. I sort of going to, was like Sheppard's Bush and, you know, being there and, you know, supporting them.

That was great. you know, I've been to Wimbledon like a number of times as well. It was always great that, you know, I'd be able to like see like some of the Australians play as well. And that was always like quite a nice feeling to be, you know, sat out on like Henman Hill as it was in the early days and then turning it into Murray Mounds later on. And, you know, being able to watch Australians off on the big screen or.

You know, if they were, you know, one of the courts that I was like, you know, go and watch, I had a ticket into, you know, seven court or court one or something like that. mean, that's, you know, there's a nice sort of like patriotic thing to do as well. Massively so. Did you get to see much of the country as well? I London is such a big place and, you know, holds a lot of population in Greater London anyway. Did you get to travel much to other parts of the country to see,

The better parts of the country, would say being in North London. I did. I was really lucky. the job that I first had when I moved to London, that I first got, they had a remote sales team. every, was in, I was based in London and we were headquartered out of London. We had like different teams that were sort of spread throughout the country. So I got to travel around. got to go up to Manchester quite a bit, which was great.

you know, got to go to, you know, other places as well, from a work perspective, but then also did a lot of traveling myself. So, I was lucky, you know, every two or three years, like my mom would fly over to visit as well. So we would, you know, one year we got the train up to Scotland and then like drove back, from Scotland, you know, throughout sort of the North England and like down through the Midlands and into Norwich.

James Doran (36:02.702)

and see all the beautiful countryside and staying in some incredible sort of big bees. And we did the same in Ireland as well. My flatmate that I was first living with in the UK is from Cornwall. So I got to go down to Cornwall like a few times. I mean, I absolutely loved it down in Cornwall as well. yeah, so it was a big thing. And the only place I didn't go, and I don't know why I never did, was Wales. But yeah, I got to see, got to see

pretty much everywhere else, was great and loved how diverse it is and definitely how friendly people are outside of London as well. So getting out of that London bubble and out into the other regions was, yeah, was a rarity and I it. And I guess how cheap a pint was as well as quite important outside of London, it used to half. Now it's about the same probably. Exactly. Yeah. And I will say that one thing that probably

And especially now at the moment, over the last five years or probably more, is how expensive train travel is in the UK. And I think that for me, that was a real surprise. And actually it wasn't until I moved back here. And for me to do like a two hour trip, 90 minute trip from where I live now down into Sydney, it's about $7. So it's four pounds.

And, you know, that same sort of journey, in the UK, it's like 30 or 40 pounds sometimes. And I think that's definitely a hindrance or something that people need to be aware of when they're traveling as well is that, you know, it's not so cheap to travel in the UK. It's cheaper, obviously in Europe, the trains over there are super cheap as well. you know, think that's something that, you know, I'd love to see change in the UK. It's like bringing down that cost of,

know, train travel so more people can get out and explore all of the fantastic places outside of London as well. I completely agree. Yeah, you can get very lucky with random times of trains for like 10 pounds or something, but I live in a called Leventon Spa, which is about 90 minutes away from London. And it's yeah, 28 pounds with a rail card. So with a third off, it still costs you that much to go. albeit a return. So you get back with that, with that same ticket.

James Doran (38:25.816)

But it's expensive and it becomes a bit of a hindrance for sure. And you have to be quite privileged to be able to do that as much as possible. I think the new government, which just got into power, might start changing that. I think there was talk about nationalizing the railway service. That might lower the price. Who knows? Wonderful. Was there any food is such a big part of living abroad? And culture. Now British food gets probably not a very good reputation.

internationally, which I think is a bit unfair because we have some great food, albeit the foods which kind of travel aren't so great. What was your experience? Did you go for a roast dinner? Did you have some chips? Did you have, you know, actual like a Yorkshire pudding? Best thing ever. Yeah. my God. Yeah. That's one thing that I miss back in Australia now is like a Sunday roast and like pub lunch and Yorkshire pudding. I never had a Yorkshire pudding until I moved to the UK.

absolutely loved them and missed them. probably one of the key sort of sweet things that I missed for sure. And you're right. I think when I moved over in 2006, so this goes back to like my very first day again in London, in that pub in Hammersmith, and we were getting lunch. And I was like, just get a hamburger. And hamburgers are like a staple in Australia. Like, you know, they're great. They've got everything on them.

you know, lettuce, tomato, beetroot, egg, onions, the works, like they're, you know, obviously they're renowned for that, their burgers. And this pub, I got the hamburger and it was like the patty, one piece of lettuce and one piece of tomato. And it had very clearly come out of the microwave. And I was like, what is this? And, and I was like, my gosh. So that was kind of my starting point.

with food in the UK and I was like, it really is as bad as like, think what everybody says it is, but actually, you know, it led, like the time that I lived there, I think one of like the greatest things about, you know, not just in London, but across the country in general as well was, you know, how much like that food like scene really changed and, you know, gastropubs and like upping their level of like food that you can get in pubs, but.

James Doran (40:48.322)

You know, the other restaurants as well, they still love going to loads of the cafes bars in London and you know, just how diverse the food really became. think when I first moved there, you know, it was, it was that stereotypical sort of like, we've got a curry or, know, you can pie or you get whatever. and then it, you know, it just became so much more. And that was one of the things when I left the UK to move back to Australia, was like, we really hope like.

food's still going to be as good in Australia as what I'd gotten used to in the UK and just what was there. you know, absolutely, absolutely loved like trying out new places and new food. And was lucky from a work perspective as well that I worked in jobs where we did get to eat in really nice restaurants, whether or not it was like from tea lunches or dinners or from client entertaining and, you know, being able to eat in some really lovely places. But then also like,

local coffee shops and things like that too were big. And also the emergence of like Australian restaurants became a thing over the last sort of five or 10 years. know, Bill Granger has had his restaurants over there for quite some time, but there was more and more starting to pop up as well. And so that the Australian branch culture, I started to see become a thing a lot more in the UK too. So it was good to see.

with the Aussie influence, know, in London, as well, which was, which was really nice. I don't think I've ever seen an Australian restaurant before, so I must not be seeing you probably. I might have to look next time I go. Yeah. I'm so nice. We're not going to the right places. Maybe that's the problem. I'll go find out. Next time I go, I'll, I'll check out Green during Co-Op here in London. And there's, there are some restaurants under the, there's a restaurant and company called

called Daisy Green and they've got loads of different restaurants and coffee shops around London, which is silent as well. might have been back, because I'm realised, because yeah, I'm just ignorant probably. Yeah, that's one of the things I guess when you're doing a peek at out, don't you? Completely, yeah. When I was in Sweden I looked for the British shop and there was a pub which had the rugby on a football on, so you knew where to find things which you could...

James Doran (43:12.11)

get over homesickness, which is probably a big thing as well. So when you're living abroad and you're thinking, wish I had X, Y, Z or missing something, you can go and hunt out for things which make you think of home or kind of give you that kind of fix of homeliness. I don't know if you experienced much homesickness when you were there, but how was that? Did you have any kind of remedies to go for it? think, yeah, I did experience it. I didn't experience it.

All the time because I would come home to Australia in general sort of for Christmas every year. That was probably only maybe four or five times in those 16 years. So I didn't have a trip home each year. So was lucky that I was kind of always regularly sort of checking in on the, you know, family and friends and being back in Australia for three weeks every year, which was, which was a great position to be in.

definitely when those sort of spells of homesickness hit and that's normally when something happens at home and you can't be there for it. think that's when like the real sort of ends of homesickness kick in and for me it was always very much about music and listening to Australian bands and artists I love so

my Spotify playlist, I could always tell now like when they started introducing raps, whether or not I'd had like a home secure because it always depended on the amount of success I'd listened to that year. And to other fans as well, definitely definitely engage. But yeah, being able to listen to like your soundtrack for your grow up with things like that was really important. I'd always go and see Ozzy bands in London as well. So that was something that I

would do. And there used to be a shop in Cobby Garden called the Australia shop that would sell like all shoes and everything from home. And it was quite a day when they closed down. there was sort of an online store that did pop up as well. So being able to like order and, you know, pay an exaltment amount of money for, you know, selling your local sort of prior sort of delicacies.

James Doran (45:34.562)

And that was key sort of to dealing with homesickness as well. And I always had a jar of Vegemite in my cupboard. And thankfully, know, Tesco always thought that, so there was never a shortage of Vegemite. But that was sort of like my go-to as well, having Vegemite on toast. Never ever have I had Marmite, never will. So always, always Vegemite. So yeah, they're the key things. I think it's, you know, it's definitely music and food and then...

you know, catching up with another Australian as well, just being able to like talk about what's going on and things like that too is important for, for dealing with high sickness and much easier now to stay connected with home. Like when I first moved over, there not being any Facebook or you know, messenger or anything like that. was, you know, having to write emails to people. vocals were really expensive and you get to talk to people all the time. And I think that.

One of like the greatest things from like a social media and technology perspective is just how easy it is now to stay connected with people back home and still sort of feel like you're part of it and talk to people whenever you need to. So that definitely helps. You know, it helps with homesickness and like the latter years that I was in the UK. Massively, yeah, completely. And thank you for showing us. It's not easy to think back about how hard stuff can be in the homes. It's a difficult time for most people.

And yeah, thank you for showing your advice on how to, I guess, deal with it. Is there anything else you wish to kind of discuss or mention about your time living abroad before we can go into the next section? Yeah, I think that the other thing that I make sure that I did when I was learning how to sing was just because somebody didn't want to go traveling with you or go to a concert with you or go and eat out or something like that.

to not stay at home. So was very much like being comfortable with like going to gigs by myself and you know, going on a holiday by myself and you're checking out in European city for a weekend, being able to wander around and you know, going to a gallery, you know, those types of things. I think that's so important when you're living somewhere new as well is that there's not always going to be, you know, people around to want to do things with you. lot of the time there is, which is fantastic, but

James Doran (48:00.652)

You know, you're not always going to align up with what somebody else's like plans and agenda are and like money wise as well. Like people don't necessarily want to spend their money on the same things you want to your money on too. And you know, for me, like in those first few weeks actually in the UK, I went and saw the Red Coral Chili Peppers by myself. They were playing in El's Court. They were one of my favorite bands and...

You know, my friend wasn't into them, who I was staying with. and I didn't really know flatmates, so wasn't about to get them to pay money to come and see my favorite band with me. And, you know, just going and like, and doing that, was only for me, it was like two stops on the tube to, know, to get there. And, you know, that was great. And that kind of set me up for a lot of the other things that I did, when I was traveling as well, like, you know, just.

jumping on the Eurostar and going to Paris for a couple of days or going to a retreat in Greece and just being comfortable actually doing things by yourself and not waiting for somebody else to say yes to do the things that you want to do. Just get out and do those things because it's so important that you're enjoying your time overseas because it goes so quickly. Even 16 years, we a plan super fast.

And you should just do the things you want to do without waiting for others to do it with you. Wonderful. Well, what a great kind of way to end to the segment and with some incredible advice and yes, just be fearless in certain ways. Sure. It's a great opportunity to thrive. I guess we'll see you now for section three.

James Doran (49:45.88)

So welcome to section three of the podcast, which is not actually named, but essentially Debbie, it's a review of your time. So the first question I always ask in this section is, if you could go back to your younger self before you moved and give yourself a bit of advice or change something, what might you say to yourself? What might you tell yourself to do more of, less of or avoid? Yeah, I don't think, probably wouldn't change anything just only because I kind of have that mindset of, you know,

you get your experiences that you have because of like the things that happen. So, there's probably nothing that I would change from that perspective. What I would say to my sort of younger self before they sort of pended out on that trip is one, to save some more money, like go with a little bit more cash. I think that's important, but I think once just in general in life, it's basically to always have a bit more. If you're in a situation where you can do that.

Two, don't bother shipping any Australian winter clothes over because you're not going to wear them. You're to have find a whole new winter wardrobe in the UK, for sure. And then I think, you know, the other piece of advice is, you know, it's just have fun. And I did, I had a lot of fun while I was over there. going to go with an open mind, say yes to, you know, lots of things and just be open to new experiences and new cultures and meeting new people and.

you know, living a different life that's, you it is quite different to Australia. So yeah, definitely, you know, have a lot of fun. And would you give us some advice to someone else moving from not Australia, so anywhere else in the world to anywhere else, would you kind of pick up on the same points of open your mind and open your heart and you'll be taken somewhere and you'll learn some things? It doesn't matter where you're going in the world.

I think you need to go into a new culture with a complete open mind. it used to be something that I hated. remember being on holidays. think it was in, I think it was in or Turkey and we're in sort of like quite an English resort and sort of, you know, seeing sort of the Brits on holidays, you know, complaining about the fact that there wasn't a fry out, but there's like a full

James Doran (52:07.288)

continental, European, amazing buffet spread there. And then there are some people quite loudly complaining that has no fried eggs. I think you need to be open wherever you go, that things are gonna be different. They're not gonna be the same. And actually that's the joy of travel. And it's definitely the joy of living somewhere new is getting to experience new cultures and meeting new friends.

coming across things that you would never come across in your home country. And, you know, it's really exciting, you know, it broadens your mind for sure. And, you know, I think as soon as you go traveling, especially if you live somewhere outside of like your home country, you're never the same person going back. It's impossible to, you know, to be that same person in Beth. So yeah, being, be open to it, which is the best way to travel. Completely. I think,

I unfortunately share a country with a of people who are the people you just described abroad and you know don't bother learning any pleasantries in the language or you looking for the same foods or the same TV channels and what have you which can be really good if you're homesick but if you're there to travel and explore and have a cultural exchange then the idea is you have to immerse yourself in a new culture that makes you grow and empathise with people too.

Exactly. It's actually been a big part of it. And I think with how the world is today, especially, I think having empathy for people that are experiencing different things to you. And, you know, I'd found that, you know, living and working with people from different cultures and from countries where there could be some, you know, tension tackling or like the, you know, the economic environment's not as great as what it is in New Canada or Australia. And I think

That definitely gets you thinking about the fact that the person sitting next to you could be really struggling with something that you've got no idea on the concept of, but actually through talking to them, you get to understand what's going on in other parts of the world and become really empathetic to different situations. And you do things not as black and white and realize that actually there is a lot of gray there as well. So I think that's really key.

James Doran (54:30.894)

I think the world is not binary at all. It's different experiences for sure that we all will kind of have in our arsenal of how we react to things, which is, as you mentioned, a good point of knowing that everyone is different. Everyone has a different reaction to every input we have. We need to be caring and empathetic or least sympathetic if you can't be empathetic.

just respecting people's responses and people's, in a reaction to certain things. Going forward then in terms of your, your future, do you plan to live abroad anywhere else or now you've moved back? that kind of you set on? never say never. I think for now I'm pretty happy back here in Lebow intended to stay in the UK for as long as I did. so.

kind of, you know, happy with sort of the slower pace in life and I've changed around my career a bit as well. So it's not as active as what it was when I was living overseas, but I'm very aware that I do get itchy feet. But so I think for the short term, I'm wanting to, you know, explore more of Australia because I've seen like way more of Europe and, the rest of the world than I have, you know, of Australia. So I'm wanting to.

you know, to do some travel around Australia and places I haven't been before. think that's really, really important too. But when I got out of overseas again, I don't know. I've got my British passport, so it's always an opportunity. Like in my future, it's always a possibility. just never know, never know what's going to happen. So I definitely don't rule it out, but I don't have any plans, which I make my family and friends be quite happy about.

to jump on a plane and look somewhere else at the moment. quite happy at home. Wonderful. And then going back to your kind of professional life in terms of the world of marketing, that been a good career for you in order to experience new countries and cultures? it maybe something you would advise someone who wants to live abroad to get into that field? Yeah, I mean, for me, it definitely has been.

James Doran (56:50.794)

literally taken me around the world. A lot of the travel that I've done, especially around Europe and to the US actually, about one trip to America, and I've done quite a few, have all been work related. So I've been really lucky that I've been in jobs where they've actually paid me to travel and I've been able to tackle holiday days to a work trip and get to explore. that's made traveling a lot cheaper for me as well. That was a big part.

You know, traveling around Europe as well, bringing in jobs where we had offices in very in Sweden and Italy, Germany, France, Spain, probably some other places. I forgot, but you know, I was really fortunate that they're of, know, my roles under the different companies that I've worked for have always involved travel. Being able to go, I think went to Cannes in the South of France for at least three or four, two for an event.

you know, throughout my time living in the UK. So yeah, for me, marketing definitely has afforded me the opportunities to add, you know, to travel and see the world. it's, you know, got me my visa. I was really lucky. The company that I did the temp job for went on to sponsor me for my work permit and then my residency as well. and you know, the other side to that too is, you know,

It just doesn't get handed to you. There's a lot of hard work in there as part of that too, and a lot of sacrifice. But it was definitely, maybe overseas, it like the right decision for my career perspective. For me, I wouldn't change a thing from that perspective. Wonderful. And kind of going forward onto your new career now, do you wish to share about the work you're currently doing and how people can find you and get in touch?

Yeah, so I'm a marketing consultant and advisor for small and medium sized businesses. Really focusing on companies that are local to me where I live in Australia, but also looking at SaaS companies and tech companies that are in scale up phases and really helping them grow like what I did throughout my career. And I'm also a coach, so I do a lot of career coaching as well, both the marketers.

James Doran (59:11.804)

and one of the other areas that I want to explore now is, the expats, especially as those that are thinking about moving home too, cause that is like quite a big, you know, decision to make as well. That impacts career too. So, so yeah, so lots of different facets to what I'm doing now, but, my website is devygingsford.com. It's like really simple. and that's, yeah, that's where people tend to come.

find me and back at it. I'm on like daily as well. So always happy to be able. Wonderful. They'll be linked below in the show notes. So if you do wish to go and find Debbie, yeah, please do click those and get in touch with them. I'm sure she'll help you out in whatever you need. That sense. Wonderful. Well, thank you, Debbie, for your time and so generous of you to spend your evening with me and my morning exposed with the time zones and

Yeah, thank you for listening, thank you for watching. If you're watching on YouTube or Spotify, have the new video function, which is great. If you haven't enjoyed the podcast, please let us know, please comment or send us a message on socials. Please do let your friends know about if they also are Australian who've lived abroad or would like to live in the UK from somewhere else, yeah, please do share with them and we can learn from that and grow and hopefully we'll see you next time for the ExpatPod.