Stephen Shaken (00:06.222)

So hello and welcome to the Expat Pod. My name is James, your host. And today I'm joined by Steven. Steven is an American who's about living in America, but you have spent some time living abroad, which is why we're doing this episode with yourself. We met via a podcasting agency. If you'd like to give a quick introduction about yourself, where you've lived and what you do. Sure. My name is Steve Shakin and I was born and raised in New York City. I became a lawyer, a criminal defense lawyer for most of my life.

And I was married at about age 30. My wife is from the Philippines. And we moved out to the Bay area of California where I practiced law for about 30 plus years. Quite happily, I might add. And then my wife had a series of cancer, medical cancer problems. And the last one was stage four, which is pretty serious. But every once in a while you...

as they say, you beat the reaper. And this is one of those things where she just completely survived and has been living on very happily for like probably about 10 or 11 years without any incident whatsoever. After that happened, I decided it was time to retire. I didn't see what I could do, what working any longer could mean besides having your wife alive and well. And when I decided I did not want to be one of

those criminal lawyers who retires and then every day for the rest of their life goes back to the coffee shop next to the courthouse to hang out with their friends. Nothing wrong with having friends, but that wasn't what I wanted. And we knew at that point if we were going to live somewhere else, it was going to be Thailand. And I can certainly explain why. Yeah, well, we can do that in the next section. So great. Any segment you want. And that was how we wound up living abroad.

and we've lived there for four years and came back and now live in Tampa, Florida where I'm happily retired writing books mainly about my adventures and my observations in Thailand, thriller books.

Stephen Shaken (02:16.974)

Welcome to one of the podcasts a lot getting there. So Steve, this is where I try, you kind of touched upon your reasons for wanting to leave in the introduction, but a bit more of the why Thailand would be interesting from my perspective in terms of, so out of all the countries in the world and your wife is from the Philippines, what was the reason why you went to Thailand as opposed to go to the Philippines? Well, I love the Philippine people. I like the culture. I certainly love my wife and my food daughters were half Filipino.

But living in the Philippines is difficult. It's a wonderful country in the sense that the people are wonderful and they do like Americans, which isn't necessarily the case everywhere as in the world. Just about everyone speaks English. So all that, but the transportation system is terrible. It has dangers. If you're thinking about any kind of business or anything, there's going to be a lot of people with their hands out.

What I'd say is, as much as I love the country, it is difficult. It depends. If you're like just the person who's going back to visit your family, you know, my wife goes to the province and hang out with your friends for a few weeks. It's great, you know? But if you're trying to do things similar to what you do back in America or in England, it's not possible. Now Thailand or Bangkok is an international city. Whatever you can, I'm telling you, whatever you can do in London or New York or Tampa, you can do in Bangkok.

You may not have the same broad choice, but much broader than you think. I mean, and how do I know all this? I think that's why I picked Ireland. I know it because back in the year 2003, I think it was, I had two daughters. They were in college and there's an unwritten rule in America. Lawyers never get financial assistance for their kids in college. They pay full fare.

So I wanted to go on a vacation, but I also wanted to go on one I could afford. And as luck would have it, a friend of mine invited me to have lunch with him. He said, I got a friend of mine who's been living in Thailand for 16 years. He's a fascinating guy. You gotta go meet him. And we had lunch and the way he explained it to me was he said, well, you could actually go there with your entire family, have a great time and like, it will be kosher almost very little, which turned out to be true. Everything had a great time.

Stephen Shaken (04:38.638)

Such a good time that one of my daughters decided she was going to spend a year abroad studying in Thailand. And she managed to do that, which only meant we had another excuse to go there. While I was there, I was a criminal lawyer, but also did a lot of deportation defense, mostly people being deported for crimes.

In the expat community, when word got around, this was a guy that knew this stuff, I started to have people that wanted to use my services, mostly to try and get visas for people who were being denied visas, but sometimes to try and, they were wanted back in the States. And I, you know, you explained to them, you have to come back, they don't negotiate with fugitives. And that would usually be the end of that. But the point was I was able to open up a small virtual office and I would go there and I'd visit,

Wife and I would go there, we'd visit my daughter, we'd hang out, and I'd have a joke because you know what Thailand is famous for. And I'd joke and I'd say, I think I may be the only phraong, that's like, you know, basically a white tourist in history who left Thailand with more money than when he got there because people were actually paying me for, I wasn't making a lot, but I mean, it was fantastic. And then I told you, my wife developed, we went back many times, we loved it, and my wife is Philippine, we're her family.

So we had the great thing where you could visit the family, but you wouldn't have to stay there. And when that incident happened, when my wife survived, we knew where we wanted to spend. We knew the country. We had spent quite a bit of time there. And my daughter knew a lot of people. And we were able to, it's very easy to get accommodations. I don't know if back in 2015, if Airbnb was the big thing it was then, but.

They had the internet and it was very easy. And because I had lived there, I knew what prices were and I knew neighborhoods. I knew, and I also had friends who could tell me if I could say, hey, is this really a good block? You know, so we took a chance and we got, we took a brief rental in an apartment building and we liked it. And we wound up basically staying in Bangkok for most of the four years, just with brief trips back to America every once in a while, never very long. And then,

Stephen Shaken (06:55.886)

It was time to come back because America is my country. Completely. And in getting to Thailand then, was there a requirement of visas or what was that process like? Okay. And that's a very good point. If you're going to stay in a country for a long period of time, do some research on A, visa requirements and B, visa enforcement. Now, by and large,

Very few Thai immigration officers are running around looking for retired American lawyers to see if they are here on the right visa, but it could happen. And as in any country, you could be shaken down. Also, people could just say, you know, when you get out of the west, policemen have, you know, income supplements that we don't usually see out here. And I would advise knowing the visa category, and yes.

We knew that. We knew we could easily qualify for retirement fees in Thailand, which simply required showing that you had a certain monthly income or a certain amount in a bank. Now, in America, I mean, my wife and I were professionals. Our social security alone, without even touching anything, was enough to qualify us for the investment fees. We had enough income coming in from that. This is not Paris, the prices of Paris or London.

This is one third to one quarter of those prices. And so we got that visa and it's beneficial in the sense that it lets you come and go pretty easily with that. Thailand does have a lot of terrible restrictions. Every 90 days you have to register that you're still there. You can do it online, but good luck with the online system. And every year you have to come back and renew your visa, which was never a problem for us.

I always had the feeling that like an older couple married that was kind of, this was exactly who Thailand they were looking to get, you know? So they were super nice to us. Never a problem. wow. And was it sort of thing with your wife having gone through what she'd gone through, was that easy for insurance or did you, did you have insurance before you left? Well, we were, yes. We, in America, when you retire, when you reach 65,

Stephen Shaken (09:16.238)

You qualify for Medicare, which I say is sort of like a modified version of the British system with lots of co -payments for older people. And you can pick the government plan or you can pick a private plan. We picked the private plan partly because it covered things like chiropractic and things like that. Also, you were allowed, they would cover, if you notified them that you were going to be out of the country for six months, you were covered for six months for emergencies or urgent care.

You know, if you needed ordinary med, I mean, top doctors were so cheap, you didn't need that. And so, you know, pre -existing conditions are not applicable in Medicare. So we knew that if anything serious happened, we'd be covered. We came back to the States usually every six months, sometimes for just like a weekend, you know, too, but there's always something you got to take care of.

That was not a problem. Anything else you pay for out of your, I mean, you know, all dental work and stuff, we just paid for that out of pocket. It was not even, I mean, it was a joke compared to what you pay in America. Before you left, did you have houses to deal with or all your belongings to sort out? What was your, what did you do with those? Is it your storage or? The first time we left, we had, before we sold our house in California. So for a period of about two years, two and a half years,

We had one of my daughters live there for a while. When she came back from Thailand, she lived there for a while. And then my brother lived there for a while. And then we just had some friend of ours stay there for a while. And then one of our trips back, we sold it. It wasn't very hard. And then on another trip back, we bought the house in Tampa. And that one stayed empty for a while. Then my daughter stayed there for, one of my daughters stayed there for a few months.

You know, the problem when you have an empty house in Florida, you still have to keep the air conditioning running all the time. Or when you come home, it will be covered in mold. So, and you, but these are all things you have to take care of. Now, when we sold the house in California, you were absolutely correct. We had to put everything in storage. Now that was only because we knew we were coming back and we were going to ship, we knew we were going to move to Tampa. So we had to keep it somewheres.

Stephen Shaken (11:37.134)

If I may say something, this is a very important point in people who are planning to or thinking about being expats. We knew we were going to be coming back to America someday and living in Florida, and so we paid for a storage place. Many people are under the mistaken belief that they will ship their stuff over to where they are. And I knew a fellow who came to Bangkok, fell in love with it. He was retiring. He said, this is where I'm going to come to live.

He came to Bangkok and one day he wasn't there anymore and I asked what happened. They said, he became disgusted because he realized it was going to cost him like $25 ,000 to like ship all the stuff back from the States, you know, his furniture and his TV and everything. He should have looked at that first, but secondly, he also should have looked into buying stuff locally. Why would anybody

The cost of furniture in Asia is very, very low. Why would anyone in their right mind consider shifting their chair? That's an example of poor planning. Now, obviously we knew what we were going to do, but make sure you know what your future, or have a pretty good idea about your future plans. You might want to keep everything in storage for a year or two, just in case it doesn't work out. More people who come to be expats wind up leaving than stay, that's for sure.

Yeah, they get the bug and keep going on and on, which is quite common as well. Wonderful. Was there anything else you needed to do before you kind of left and took off for Thailand? Well, of course you have to make sure that like people who need to know where you are know where you are. That's one thing. You better make sure you, you know, post office will only hold your mail for a certain period of time.

And since I had house guests, they were able to hold my mail and get rid of the junk mail, what's clearly junk mail. So when I got back, I didn't have like eight months worth of circulars. That's really important. And I think you also have to think about how you're going to fund yourself. I mean, you better make sure, A, if you're going to do one of two ways, you're going to have a lump sum of money, which is very common for the younger people.

Stephen Shaken (13:57.934)

you know, that haven't retired or you've got an income stream because you're retired or you made money or you sold something. If you don't, you better figure out how you're going to survive. Now, even if you have the money, you have to figure out how you're going to get it there. I mean, are you going to like, if you're going to think you're going to live there for three years, are you going to take $100 ,000 in cash to get in your suitcase? Of course not.

And you have to understand, Americans have a real difficult time opening up a bank account overseas because of that FASCA requirement that requires banks to report just about everything you do. So, you know, your little, you know, checking account, they have more people reporting on it than they make off you. So they just say, we don't want to have your account. The way I worked it out was I had all my money deposited into a bank account, my long -time bank account in America.

I won't advertise for the bank because it was my long time bank account. And that was where my social security and all pension stuff was deposited, including my wife, you know, whenever. And then we had a Charles Schwab account, which just required you to have like a checking account and they would give you an ATM card. And with that ATM card, you could go to any ATM machine in the world and take out money.

and they would refund any charge. At the end of the month, they'd refund the charge to you. So basically, after one month, you were playing with their money. And they gave you the best possible exchange rate I've ever seen. I think I found a place in Chinatown in Bangkok that gave us, you know, in the kind of place, like, you know, you have to know how many times to knock on the door, those kinds of places. But I mean...

That really made it easy. So I basically operated on, and you don't have to do this in every country. I wouldn't have had to do it in the UK, for example. But I'd go and take out large amounts of cash, and that's what I'd pay my rent with and spend with it. And then the rest of the time, I put everything on a credit card, and then I just paid it off once a month. And that allowed me to avoid dealing with Thai banks, opening up an account.

Stephen Shaken (16:08.718)

And it avoided me having to have extensive ATM fees and getting ripped off on current. If you, when you do, I mean, nothing is a worse exchange rate than doing it through like your bank and the credit cards and all that stuff. So, but it would be, it's different country to country, you know? So I really, but you gotta look into that stuff. You really have to, how easy is it? Just don't assume that you're gonna go to a country and they're gonna let you open a bank account and you'll transfer your money from America into that. They may chase you away.

say you're not worth it. Yeah, I had a similar story when I opened a bank in Sweden to me about three months to do. So I had a credit card which had no foreign transaction fees, which is really good. I had a Monzo bank account and a Revolut. Similar reasons, you have different pots of currency and stuff, which was really good exchange rate and really easy to kind of use. That's right. That many cards will give no foreign exchange fees. Then they'll offer you, sometimes they'll ask you if you want to convert it into

dollars as a way of ripping you up. And I say, why would I get a card like this? And anyways, yeah, that's an important thing to know because especially if you're on a budget, you wouldn't be, well, you know how much of a difference avoiding those fees and getting ludicrous exchange rates, how much it could be 10, 15 % of your money if you know what you're doing. That's how much it could be. So, yeah.

I mean when you really think about it, if you're paying ATM fees and to two different banks and then you're getting ripped off on the exchange rate, it starts to add up. So it's marginal gains, but not in your favor. Wonderful. Is there anything else you want to talk about before you kind of move to Thailand or should we go into section two about being there? I think we can go into section two. I think it's pretty clear that I knew about Thailand. I knew what I was getting into.

Stephen Shaken (18:09.902)

So welcome back to the podcast of Welcome to Section 2, what about being there? So Steve, this is where I get my guests kind of initial first impressions of a new country. I know you spent a lot of time in Thailand, but when you first moved to live, what was your first impression like in that sense? Was it a different neighborhood, different city, or was it just a familial kind of experience for you? What my experience was this, I had been there many times as I mentioned, probably been there like at least

12, 15 times and often for up to two or three weeks and conducted business there, I thought I knew the place. But once I actually was living there and being like a regular citizen of the city, sort of, I realized I didn't know anything. There were layers, there were layers and layers that I just didn't have the vaguest idea. I mean, I never had problems with Thai people, but I realized I had no idea what they were all about. It was only living there and really...

Especially learning to speak the language, that really helped a lot. That I really began to understand it and I was constantly being amazed. I was just, I'm sure if I, you know, even when I went back not long ago for two and a half months, there were things I was discovering that I never knew. It's a very different culture and it's a very easy one. If you are willing to be adventurous, there's little danger in the country. There's only far down south where they have an insurrection.

But that's so far away you'd never go there. And it's safe and people are really nice and it's just fascinating. And I was continually learning things about the country. In terms of the language then, when you said you started speaking the language, what was your kind of method in order to learn it? Well, I had a teacher. And then when we went to the school, I realized that people learn differently. And I said, look, I'm never going to learn...

doing this book method. It's just not how I do it. In other words, like Johnny saw the snake. That's not how I do it. What I would like to do is I said, I know a lot of words already. When we come in, I'll just start talking to you in Thai about whatever it is that we, whatever topic is appropriate. It could just be about the lesson itself, or it could be about Thailand, and you will make sure that I say it right. And they thought that was a great method. And it worked, and you gotta do it. I did it.

Stephen Shaken (20:35.118)

two, three times a week. For several years, we've been going to a Thai Watt in Tampa, and on Sunday, it looks just like, it just looks like you're in Thailand, and they have monks from Thailand, and they have the whole Buddhist ceremonies, and they have, they serve the real Thai food on Sunday, not the Thai food you get at a Thai restaurant in America, which is delicious, but is made for people who can't have five -alarm spice.

And I go there and I get to talk to Thai people in Thai. And it's, I hang on to my diminishing language skills, but it helps an awful lot. It really, it's an unbelievably difficult language and no matter how much you try, you'll always sound like an idiot speaking it. But the appreciation that you get from people and the way it opens up doors for people to, you know, you get, I mean, if you want to know Thai people, you're going to have to speak some Thai. It's just unavoidable, you know.

And so I found that to be very helpful. And I also greatly enjoyed the Buddhist culture. I found it. It made those people, you know, I, that's one reason why it's not a very dangerous place. No, yeah. Buddhism is quite an interesting religion for me. I really quite like the teachings of it. and it's something which, if I was more religious, I'd definitely, explore more. I read, Alan Watts, The Way of Zen. You read the books or not? I've read that all.

Thai Buddhism's a little different than Zen's and some of the most famous, they call it Theravada, is what they call it. Some of the most famous Theravada teachers are actually from Britain, white guys from Britain. I've attended lectures and whatever to call it. Ajahn Samaeho and Ajahn Amaro. Ajahn is an esteemed teacher title and Samaeho must be, if he's still alive, he's got to be in his 80s. I don't even, Amaro is like,

probably about 55 or 60, but these guys are the real, I mean, they go to Thailand and like the Thai monks ask them questions. These guys are serious, serious dudes and they come from England. I guess they live many years in the sweltering forest of Thailand. I guess when you come from England, you'll do anything to get away from the cold. Seriously, my teacher in Thailand was British also.

Stephen Shaken (23:00.974)

You know, I mean, so a meditation teacher and they sent it, he, you know, he had been a Buddhist monk for quite some time, but they sent him out to, you know, into, to teach the, you know, as there's so many foreigners living in Bangkok and they really understood it'd be easier for God like that to teach us. So it really, really went really well. That's incredible. You mentioned just then about the, the expat community in Thailand.

where you were living, was it amongst a lot of expats? Was it amongst a lot of locals? Was it a good mix? It depended upon where I was living. Most of the time, it was large. For the most part, the expats are concentrated in what we call the green belt, which is a stretch of the main, one of the main thoroughfares. It's more upscale, a lot of Western.

you know, businesses, but also a lot of upscale Thais and Japanese and Koreans live there too. In other words, it's, you know, but you can never, it may look to you like you're in a Ferran ghetto, but a block and a half away, you realize you're outnumbered 99 to one. And not that it matters of all, but some areas were more Thai than others. But it's very, now, if you don't speak Thai,

it would be exceedingly difficult to live in a Thai neighborhood unless you as like a Thai partner, you were living with a Thai. Because you know, every minor thing, the air conditioner breaks, you're in trouble, boy, you know. If you don't speak Thai out there and they don't even have, things may not even be in English. People do it. But you know, to be perfectly honest, I like living in the more, you know, expat areas of town. Certainly when you get there at first. Certainly when you get there at first.

Was that easy for socialising when you first moved to socialise amongst English speaking people? Yes. Because number one, wherever you go, whatever building you go into, if you're an expat just getting there, probably half the people are expats and everyone's going to want to give you advice. That's one thing you begin to realise. Like in the West, especially with we Americans, the ethos is, let me tell you what I think, but

Stephen Shaken (25:17.262)

you realize entirely nobody cares what you think, shut up, you know? And so, but, so they're really happy to have a captive audience. And the other thing is, one reason I like Bangkok over the Philippines or other is anything you were doing, you could do in Bangkok. For example, I was a writer, there's a wonderful writing group. We met twice a month and then we officially, and then we of course had split off, we read each other's work, we gave, it was just wonderful.

I studied meditation, went to yoga. Now, although I studied my background as Jewish, although I'm not the most religious person, when you're away, you do miss certain things at home. They have not just one. This is just like in America. There's the Orthodox and the Reform. And so, in many ways, I was in this exotic culture where people didn't look like me, they didn't think like me, they had a completely different worldview.

But on the other hand, I was going to writing. I was going to, if I wanted to go to a synagogue, I went to meditation classes. I went to yoga just like I did in California. Some of the best pizza I have had outside of New York City was in Bangkok. Those people can imitate any kind of cooking in the world. Some of the finest British pubs, I will say this, like there were some British pubs in Bangkok that really are better than most of the British pubs I've been to in Britain. I kid you not.

That may be because they offer a wider range. They offer all the standard British food plus all the Thai food. So you can have it, you know, any combination. I know I love Pope's, too, Thai green curry. Well, I'm just saying is that that's one of the things that made Thailand and Bangkok a very easy place to live, where you do not have to cut off everything that you did. This isn't moving to a remote

you know, Village in the Andes or something like that. It's not like moving to a backward, you know, capital. So that really was important to me. Completely in the writing group you said you joined, how did you find that? What was the kind of, did you start it or did you find someone else or did you do it by passing? I just Googled. That's how I did it. The meetup, they did have meetup and it came up.

Stephen Shaken (27:35.598)

And I went there and I just fell in love with it and the people, they're still among my close friends. Every time I go back to Thailand, I hang out with them. I go to the, try to go to a session of the writing group. I've praised them in all my books. I've acknowledged with all the help they gave me. I found them. And then, you know, once you start making friends there, there's always some that have lived there, you know, forever. And they start telling you about where's a good place to go for meditation.

you know, where's a good place, if you want Mexican food in Bangkok, whatever it is, you know. In fact, that's where I learned, you know, that's where I learned the British pub, the one that I liked was one of them told me about improv comedy. Bangkok is a scene of English comedy, stand up and improv. And there was one that had a theater right above a place called the Royal Oak Pub, if you're ever there. It's great on a Friday night, you know.

You know, have your shepherd's pie and then go up and see some standup or improv comedy. You know, I really enjoy that. That's what I'm saying. You can't do that in just any Asian capital in the world. You know, this one you can. Was there anything else in terms of the lifestyle and the being there, which made you want to stay there for four years? You said you'd been there for four years. So what made you want to stay there longer? And what made you want to come back as well? Well, the, I'll tell you what made what I

The staying there, life is so easy. You don't have to be very rich in the West to enjoy a very good life. I lived in places that I could never afford in America. I mean, condos right in the heart of the best near everything, and maids coming. It took me a while to figure out how to make my bed again when I got back to America. My wife and I, we hadn't done it. You leave it, you know.

You magically would show up in the morning and like elves, all the towels are changed, the dishes are washed. It's hard, you know, I mean, you know, I'm a pretty liberal progressive guy, but I like that stuff. And I really like to try people. And also you develop friends with all the things I was doing that, you know, there was, there was no pressing, I wasn't lonely. What made me come back, I'll be honest, and I know this is like literary, but I have very strong political leanings and strong political feelings. They come out in all my books too.

Stephen Shaken (29:52.846)

And I wanted to be here for the election in 2020. I wanted to be involved and make sure that it turned out the way that I wanted it to turn out, which it did. And that, you know, I'm an American and that I said, you know, I wasn't there for 2016 and look what happened. No, they need me, you know? So that was the reason why, to be honest with you.

So it's quite a big year for you this year, then, I guess. At this year, I'm extremely active in politics. I hold several positions in the local Democratic Party. I mean, when I'm not writing books, I'm doing what I can. I enjoy, as you know, I enjoy talking. I enjoy going out and meeting people and canvassing. But that was probably what brought me back. That was my feeling that, you know,

is my country and they're, you know, I mean, they're going down the tubes and I love Thailand, Thailand. And I've gone back to Thailand, I thought like they didn't ban me from Thailand, I went back, you know. My wife went back there with me and she, although she's a registered nurse, she's very into alternative healing and there's a thing called Reiki. Do you know what Reiki is? No, no, please tell me. It's a form of energy healing where you don't, it sounds odd that a registered nurse, but where you actually don't actually touch the person, but.

It's based on all kinds of energy theories that are very Eastern related that I don't understand. She studied it. And we went down to one of the islands in Thailand for like a couple of months and she was there studying it. And I was like, you know, riding my little motorcycle around, you know, and, you know, I mean, it was funny. Younger people would say, you know, you can get hurt. And I'd say, no, you can get hurt. I'm not the guy drinking three pints and hopping on it. That what it's black, you know, you, I'm not going to get hurt. But.

You know, some of your fellow countrymen have been known to cough a few years before getting on a motorcycle. I will just tell you that. Yeah, but many friends have gone and come back with a lot of skin missing on their bodies, so... You know, there are far more British people than American living in Thailand. I was surprised to see that. I was surprised. And they run into two categories. Some are young people like yourself. They're doing things that...

Stephen Shaken (32:08.11)

call them digital nomads, whatever. Some have businesses, others are just doing stuff like, you know, where they don't, they can be wherever they want. And others are there, people like my age who are moaning that, you know, the collapse of the pound is really hurting them, you know, now they're having a hard, you know, they're just like they were Americans. There are people that I think it's a very bad idea to go to a place just because it's cheap. I think that's a really bad idea. You mentioned about your wife going to study, but obviously

done truettions for four years, did you have like different social networks? Did your wife go back to her family quite a lot when you stayed in Thailand or what was that Mike? We did have different networks. There were a tremendous number of Filipinos in Bangkok. They're respected because of their English skills and as they are teaching in all the finest private schools, as one of them told me, they said, you see, unlike you Americans, we work for less money and we never complain. You guys bitch and moan about everything.

I said, you know what, that's not the reason they do it, because you work for less money, let's be honest. But there's many of them, and so she had that whole social network. And people make their own friends. Not every one of my friends is my wife's friend and vice versa, but we had many, many friends in common. And yeah, my daughters both visited us. Family from the Philippines came and visited us. People from America came and visited.

And we would go back too. So, you know, my daughters live, one of my daughters lives in California. Another one lives in Austin, Texas. It's not like I see them every day, unfortunately. On that topic though, how often do you, did you talk to your friends and family about home? Was it regularly? Cause homesickness is quite a common thing we deal with when we live away. Well, it's, you know, things like Skype have changed the landscape totally because

Seeing the person makes it more meaningful than just talking on the phone. And there is a big time difference and that pretty much does make it difficult. But I did find time to talk. You know, you have different relations. Some people I actually would zoom with, no, I didn't have zoom, I'd Skype with them. And others, I just made a quick phone call. Some it was all texting and Facebook messaging or emailing. You know, but the truth is the longer you're there,

Stephen Shaken (34:30.382)

You are more day to day involved with the people you know over there. I mean, you develop it, you know, and everybody is looking to make connections. Everybody is alone there pretty much. So you do find, I mean, I was able to stay in touch with people and you know, when I'd come back to the States, which was, you know, every six or seven months, you know, even if it was brief, I'd see people. Is it the same thing going back to Thailand when you go back now to see your friends, some of the thing you

Skyping, are you zooming with those people? Yes, and I think what you find is those are the ones that were really, you know, when you go away and it's a temporary situation and everybody's a nomad, it's hard to see at first what are the real serious, meaningful relationships and what are just transitory. I mean, you know, there are people you sat next to in the third grade and there were people that became your lifelong brothers and sisters, you know, so the ones that I'm still in touch with.

Those are the ones that really became meaningful relationships. And there's quite a few. There's quite a few that I am. Both Thai people and foreigners. Even a few British, I might say. We have some manners as close eventually. Well, they're our cousins. They're the closest. People used to say, why do you Americans always hang out with us in our pubs and stuff? And I say, because you're the only ones that'll put up with us to tell you the truth.

The Irish also like us. There's a few Irish pubs. I think there is a camaraderie among all of the English speaking people, but I also detected there was some, maybe I'm wrong, some sort of, I don't know, a rivalry exactly, but like between say British and Australians and stuff that just didn't exist between, you know, not a rivalry I wouldn't say, but good -natured ribbing or things like that that didn't - Fanta.

But with America, I could walk into any Irish pub, any British pub, anywhere, sit down and start talking to people. They'd be, you know, totally cool, you know? I don't think I wound up missing anybody that I could, you know, nothing where I felt like, God, I wish I, you know, I would have liked to see my daughters more, but how often would I have seen them if I was living 3 ,000 miles away from America? Well, that's the thing, you may be supposed to be more often because you're out in the mood. Often that's the case, right? Right, that's right.

Stephen Shaken (36:44.75)

Is there anything else which stuck out to you when you were living in Thailand which was meaningful or difficult or special? Well I think what's special is the demeanor of the people. I grew up in New York City where like, you know, you wanted to get on that subway train and you fought, you know. People in Thailand are unbelievably polite and patient and it's just unbelievable to go in to see people waiting in line without no problems at all.

When there are crowds, it's never disorderly. That stuff was just fantastic. And I love, you know, they have the why, which is like they put their hands in front of them and they bow down, you know, and it's usually done to people of certain stature or age. Now I had it both ways. I was a lawyer, tonight, kawam. That's a very big deal in Thailand. They think they're rich. And also I was older.

So people are always bowing down to me. And I said, my God, this is unbelievable. They can't even get people to acknowledge me. I walk into a store in Tampa, they ignore me. I walk into here, people are running bowing in front of me. So I really like that. And as I said, the lifestyle was phenomenal. Because my wife and I were not poverty -stricken, we're not gonna, I mean, I will.

Tell me one lawyer that doesn't want more money, but I mean, we're not crying with poverty struggling. But that, the inexpensive part of it was a boo. That was the icing on the cake. Even if you don't have a lot of money, you can live really well. My daughter, when she was a student there, didn't live like my wife and I did, and she lived in a Thai neighborhood. And because she's half Filipino, they all thought she was Thai. She wound up speaking Thai really well. And like, you know, you wouldn't, if you saw her walking down the street, you'd think she was a Thai.

And it can be done, you know, it can be done. But, you know, I do go back and I do visit people when I was there and, you know, I miss them all. That's what I could say about that.

Stephen Shaken (38:48.43)

That's amazing. That's one thing I've also noticed about living abroad is the friends you make are usually friends you've had shared struggles or you're sharing all those great moments with them because you as an adult you don't go like you move to college or university or school. There's a lot of people in the same situation as you so you become like a group and quite a large group because there's quite a lot of people being thrown in the same situation. Your movie's an adult.

be any time of the year, for a job or for whatever, no one else is in the same situation as you, so they don't need more friends really. You have to work in the one to one relationships. That's what I want. From my experience, so the relationships you have, the few, but a lot deeper and a lot more fulfilling. It's definitely true that when you're home on your home front,

It's much harder to break into a social scene because it's been made rigid by people that have been doing things together for a long, long time. But when you're in a totally fluid situation, it's very easy to break in and make friends. And if you have your head about you, you've got to be careful because remember, among every expat population, among everyone, anywhere in the world, there are going to be the grifters. You're going to find them there. The people who are there.

only to take advantage of the situation you're talking about. It was pretty easy to avoid. You learn pretty quickly, do not make loans because it is no such thing as a loan from one expat to another. It is considered a gift. I mean, do you really think you're going to get paid back? I mean, seriously. That was one thing people used to come to me all the time. I said, I'm not a tire lawyer.

You know, and I'm a criminal lawyer, it's not a crime. If you loan someone money and they don't pay you back, it's not against, it's not a criminal act. Sue them, go get a Thai lawyer, you know. Good luck. That's a great bit of advice. Is there anything more before we get into section three about the review of your time?

Stephen Shaken (41:02.318)

Hello and welcome to section 3 of the podcast, which has already got a name but essentially Steve it's about a review of your time so my first question to everyone is if you could go back to before you moved and share yourself a bit of advice or something which you have used going forward what might you have said to yourself or what might you have told yourself not to do? Well you know -

Because I had such like knowledge of the country, probably less than many other people, but there still are, there still are things I would have done. number one, I probably would have earlier on tried to learn more about like the Thai markets and stuff like that. After about a year or so, my wife and I, I mean, nothing wrong with shopping in the supermarkets. They're excellent and they're not expensive and they have just made everything from Asia and

the West you could imagine. But it was really, my wife being Filipino, they are like Thais. In other words, one example is they do not want to eat a fish if that fish wasn't flopping around a few hours before. You know, frozen fish are not popular among Asian people. And so when we got the ability to go to the, when we learned about the market where the Thai people went, that was really something I wish I had have known that before I had changed.

everything to go down and get the freshest vegetables and the freshest fruits and the freshest fish. You know, you'd actually be, they'd be flopping around that ice and they'd hack them off their head, right? I mean, you sort of felt guilty, but you know, I do eat them and you know, and learning that kind of stuff. And then my wife, once she became friends with several Thais, they told her, see, one thing that everybody wanted, wants to know is how do these Thai women who don't seem to be very rich,

How do they look so beautiful? Every hair is in place, every clothing, how could they afford it? And the answer is it's not that expensive over there, but you gotta know, just foreigners don't know where to go, but when you get a few friends, you know where to go. And that, I don't know if it was a mistake, I guess I could have tried a little harder to learn about that.

Stephen Shaken (43:17.23)

And if there's anything else I wish I had have done, I wish I had have visited other parts of the country that I still haven't seen. There's so much to see and so much to do and so much cultural and geographic diversity. You can't, I mean, even in the year you can't do it all. And that, I do regret there are places I haven't been that I'd still like to go to in the country. How did you find the whole, I guess, when you were being retired, did you have to worry about filing your own taxes in the US whilst you were there or?

What was that experience like? Yes. It's a very good point because when I talked about grifters, there are some legitimate people there, retired tax lawyers, retired accountants who will do your taxes for you and do a good job and make sure it gets filed properly. And if there's any problem, they'll cover it for you because they're professionals. They were also on a side where like the police, they really care if somebody rips you off with a tax filing. They couldn't care less about that.

So you got to be careful. I had the first two years I was there, I used the same accountants that I had from when I was practicing law because I was still getting fees and I was still wanted by write -offs also, you know? So it was over my head. Then the third year we were back in the States and I went to HR Block. I was no longer a lawyer. They're just a chain. They're reputable one though.

And I no longer had all these partnership for you. When you're a level law firm, it's filing your taxes in America is a nightmare. But when you're retired and you're only getting your social security and your pension, that's it. It doesn't take very long. That was easy. You could do it on your own, in fact. But you should do it. But that's a very good point. People should make sure that they think about that because they're going to have a taxable income.

The other thing is, you know, America's unique. It's the only country in the world where all income you earn everywhere is taxable in the United States. So theoretically, if you have a business in Thailand, you have to declare what you made. Here's the good news, though. There is nothing more crooked and corrupt than the Thai tax system. So no matter how much money you make, you're going to have a balance sheet showing you did not make any

Stephen Shaken (45:39.822)

So it won't cost you that much, but, you know, there are issues, you do have to think about those things. That's all you have to wear. Exactly. Completely. and then the new thing is reverse culture shock. Cause that's something you experienced. So looking back at your home country since moving abroad and then seeing how much has changed, what you thought was really good, wasn't good, what you thought was bad, wasn't bad. Well,

Without getting into, I know this is not a political, I'll answer your cultural question. When I left at the beginning of 2015, you know, we had a fairly popular president. There were disagreements, but Americans were civil to each other. And there were things that would express prejudice against people for all kinds of reasons that would never be said by anybody, anywheres.

When I returned at the end of 2018, all those guardrails were down. Elected officials, prominent people were making the most racist and bigoted statements imaginable. People were threatening and advocating and willing to use violence, which they ultimately did use. I had seen it, it wasn't me being away. It had really, really changed. It just was more stark because I'd missed it. Now I realized if I had have gone away in, you know, any

three or four years in American history there'd be some changes, but they would have been magnified because I was away. This was just something you couldn't miss. You can't miss it. Now, I mean, I'm going to be 75 in September. I know people can't believe it because I'm so youthful and vigorous, but one of the things that people in my age say to each other is, this is not the country you grew up with. This is not the American country you grew up with.

Somehow along the line, the America that was always progressing and becoming more accepting and more tolerant and more enlightened made a U -turn and it's going in the other direction. And that was one of, I mean, I knew that and that was one of the things I wanted to come back to that. So there was, you know, I'm used to it now. I'm used to the, it's now what I thought was just unbelievable.

Stephen Shaken (47:56.174)

in 2018 or 2019 is now I just accept it as the norm. There's the thing baseline shift, right? Which is never a, not always a good thing. It can be a bad thing as well. So, which is unfortunate, but I think the whole world's becoming more polarized in the UAE. It's like my experience about which country are in the UK, similar situation. Even Sweden was when I was there as well with some elections they were doing. So.

Well, but it's more what we've seen now is an outright rejection of the things that made America great. There's no longer tolerance. No. Americans should all look a certain way. There should only be one religious viewpoint, and that should be the law. And if you don't like a court ruling, you don't have to feel bound by it. And yeah, if you really think you're right and the other side is wrong and they're being unfair, you can use violence. And that is now the new ethos here. And we have to stop it. And you know,

We have to try and stop. We have to try and use the democratic process against people who do not believe in it, who just don't believe in it. And that is the difficult thing because I'm very, because I do canvas, I encounter people constantly who say to me, right to my face, if Donald Trump does not win, the election was rigged and people have a right to use violence to get him in. And that is what you are hearing constantly, not just from.

people with swastikas on their forehead, but people who look more normal. And that is really why, that is what is frightening. I'm not saying everyone thinks that, but that is the culture shock that I've experienced. Where did it go? January 6th, 2020? Yeah. So it's, we'll see how it goes though. You know, we're optimistic, but you know, we're cautious, but optimistic. I was a lawyer. I tell a lot of my friends, I say, look, I was a lawyer.

I still am. I've been practicing there for almost 40 years, 37 years. And I've seen people like Trump come and go who thought that the law would never catch up to them. And you know, like, they call it the long arm or the law for a good reason. Sometimes it takes a long time. You know, as Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King used to say, you know, the arc of the universe is long, but it reaches towards justice.

Stephen Shaken (50:16.654)

You know, and I think that people are now they're starting to see, you know, he really has to, he really has to deal with this verdict on the 465 million and he's going to trial next month. And like, you know, Joe Louis, the boxer said, you can run, but you can't hide. And that's what gives me, you know, I, I, I considered to be what I find it. I think the greatest cultural shock of all, I'm gonna move off this, is this as a progressive person for years and years.

The accusation from the Republicans was, you're not really an American. If it was up to you, we'd have that same kind of health care they have in England. You're a commie. And now we are the ones that stand up for American values. We're the ones that say we have a rule of law, we have a constitution, we have courts, everything has to be peaceful. We're the ones who are standing up for American values so clearly. And that is a real culture shock. No, completely. And the UK health care is pretty good.

It was back in his heyday. Hopefully he gets back to there as well in the future, but I'm all for socialism. Well, I just, you know, call it what you want. I think a sick person, I think in the richest nation in the world, a sick person shouldn't have to ever think about the cost of getting better. I mean, call it whatever you want. That's my view. What advice would you give to someone who would be looking to leave the US to move anywhere in the world? Okay. Well, I think we've covered some, but the first thing I'd say is

Ask yourself where you're going and why you want to go there. And that therefore means you have to have a knowledge base. The knowledge base would include at a minimum, at a minimum, if you haven't done this, don't even talking to someone who lived there. You have to at least do that. It isn't that hard really. Maybe you don't have to call them up on the phone. Maybe you go onto some group and you talk to expats there and you dialogue where you ask them specific question.

Most of them would really be happy to answer it, but there has to be some kind of direct contact with someone who did what you did. Secondly, make sure that you know what it's going to cost to live there and that I would say if you say I'm going to be an expat, I'm moving away, the odds are nine out of 10 you'll be back, but you better have at least two years worth of living.

Stephen Shaken (52:35.758)

If you have a job, maybe that'll help you, but if not, you better make sure, unless you have rich parents, which is okay too. As long as you know that you can survive, that's what I would definitely, I would also say strongly, strongly take a trip there and spend as much time as you can there. And maybe if you're thinking about moving there, you may want to go the first time and check out a few different cities or whatever you want to live in, whatever you...

And then the second time, focus on only one. I know you say that costs a lot, not you, because people would say that's expensive and time consuming. Yeah, but nothing is worse than what happened to that guy that didn't even bother to think about, hey, am I smart? Do I really want to ship my furniture? Do I want to pay and store it? And then, I mean, why would you want to do that? How much does it cost to buy a bed in Bangkok? I mean, you know, so that's really, but all the things we spoke about, medical coverage, some countries it's really cheap.

It's cheap to buy insurance and it's cheap to go see. You just need catastrophic insurance. Others, it's very expensive. And you really want to check the visa things out too. All countries are getting tougher on it now. And all of those things must be done. And the other thing is to understand that because I knew Thailand, I never for a moment regret. I never did. But I remember when I first moved from New York to California with my wife.

There were times when we said, man, did we do the right thing? Should we move back? I mean, what kind of an idiot goes to law school in New York, practices in New York for three years, and then sets up his own office in San Francisco where he doesn't know anybody? You know, really, it worked out. But the thing is that you have those moments. You will have those moments. You, Adam, you know what I'm talking about. You guys sitting there, will I ever see the sun again in Sweden? I've been there.

And when an Englishman says that, you know it is bad. So, like, you know, not as—so, you have to—you really have to know those things and understand that it's worth it, but there will be rough periods of time. There will be times when you say, my god, and it could be something—like the first time the air conditioning breaks down and you don't know what to do at it, you know, could be anything. Could be something more serious. But—

Stephen Shaken (54:58.414)

Understand that you are going to reach those moments and be prepared to counter them. Definitely. Is there a verse you want to discuss before we kind of finish the podcast? Only that I would say that if someone is considering living abroad or maybe some long -term work, maybe they want to write or paint or whatever it is they design, and they're looking for a place that's affordable,

and has everything you could ever want. And I would recommend Thailand. I would say, you know, I mean, I love Europe too, but Europe is expensive. I couldn't live the way that I live. If I was to go to Germany or the UK, I could not enjoy myself. I couldn't, well enjoy myself, yes, I couldn't live. I couldn't stay for years on that level. I mean, could you imagine what it would cost to rent out like a nice apartment in one of the best condos in Liverpool? It would be very expensive.

but it would be not very expensive in Thailand. So, you know, and so I think, and I think that allows people to do the things they want to do. Yeah. And also the cost of travel is much higher as well, because you're going home more. So maybe you would have gone one or two long haul flights a year, you'd have gone three or four, which is to definitely take into consideration as well.

Thank you for your time, Steve, and give us an opportunity for you now to share about your books and what people can find your amazing work. Well, you can find my amazing work by number one, by going to my website, which is www .stefanshaken .com, or you can go to Amazon. All my books are available in e -books, print.

They're on Kindle Unlimited and they're on audio, audio books. And the four of them are pretty much as I, starting with Bangkok Shadows through Bangkok Circles are about an ex -pat life in Bangkok, similar to mine. So the protagonist has Thai friends and he, you know, he understands the culture. It's not, if you're looking for a book about the, you know, the guy who finds the hooker and she cheats him and he,

Stephen Shaken (57:17.582)

No, that's not my protagonist would never, well, I was there with my wife, so I wasn't exactly in and out of go -go bars. He was single, but he doesn't either. And that's what I think a lot of, I have more women readers than any other writer about, they say that all the time, but that is, I like those books. I also wrote one other book that has nothing to do with Thailand. It's called Queensborough Rock. It's based upon my...

failed attempts to be a manager in the rock and roll industry in New York City in 1971. But when I was writing it, I said, I cannot believe I lived through that. I cannot believe I threw the Allman Brothers concert at the Fillmore East, the one that they made the album of, you know, so it was, it was good. But I have to go back to Thailand regularly because without being there, I can't write those books. I really can't. It's like,

What moves me to do it is to write about Thailand. Anyways, whether they read the books or not, I hope they try Thailand out. I hope they get that a whirl. Incredible. As always, if you have found something enjoyable for this podcast, then the links to the books below. As always, we'll see you next time for the X -POP Podcast.