E052 - Navigating the Challenges of Living Abroad

James Doran (00:06.158)

So hello and welcome to the Expat pod. My name is James, your host. Today I'm joined by Deborah. Deborah, we met via Instagram and just we're in some the, guess, niches, you could call it, trying to help other expats or people who want to expats to explore where we like to live abroad, that kind of lifestyle and what it would take to do that. So I know if you could share a quick background about yourself, where you're from, where you've lived. That'd be great. Okay. Well, it's great to be here, James. Thank you for the invitation.

I love these contacts via social media because it's so rich. It's like the world is your oyster. So my name is Dabra Dahab. I'm an ex -fat coach and a geocultural psychologist. I've lived abroad for over 40 years and I help people not only navigate the afterwards, which many times is what we think about when we need help, but I help also people prepare for the move abroad.

So the afterwards isn't as difficult as it could be. I'm also an intercultural psychologist and I have a coaching certification and many other certifications under my belt. I've been working since 2016, helping people navigate this wonderful and daunting adventure of, you know, exploring and living in another country. So that's a little bit about me. before, so this might be important.

I'm originally from Brazil. I've lived in the States. I've lived in France. I've lived in the UK. I've lived in Spain and in Portugal twice. And I think there's a country missing. Spain, Portugal, Brazil, US and France. That's it. Yeah. That's all. Yeah. It's always quite exciting when you've got too many countries to list off stuff.

He was like, yeah, that's it, that's it. Perfect, we'll get into the main part of podcast.

James Doran (02:16.056)

So hello, welcome to one of the podcasts about getting there. So Deborah, this is where I try and ask my guests about the kind of the reasons why they wanted to move abroad initially. So what was the kind of inspiration or the driver wanted to go abroad? then how, so how do you actually manifest that to make it happen? What was the vehicle to do that? it visas? Was it students? Was it work? You know, what was required before you had to leave?

So let's start initially then. So when you were living in Brazil, what was the reason why you wanted to do your first move? Well, when I lived in Brazil, I was one year old and the reason that I moved was because my parents took me. I was an infant. I moved from Brazil to the States. I lived in the States for about 11 years. Then I moved back to Brazil. So I did an exchange program in the UK. So my motivation behind that was study.

I also did another exchange program in France. My motivation behind that was study. I've always been, possibly because I'm a third cultural kid, well, I'm not a kid anymore, but a third cultural kid adult. This kind of whole traveling and living abroad has been something that I've been very comfortable with in a sense, and drawn to. I've always liked to experience different cultures.

In my early life, the motivation was study. Then actually when I went to Spain in 2000, no, sorry, this was 1998. Okay, I'm giving away my age. I moved to Spain to get my MBA. Back then I was in business. have a business background. I used to work in marketing.

I spent two years in Spain doing my MBA. After my MBA, I realized that I wanted to continue living abroad. And for me, abroad is a weird thing because there's no one place that is a home country. And this is something common with third cultural kids who become adults. You know, it's hard to pinpoint, like, where do you feel at home? This is something for us, it's kind of hard to articulate.

James Doran (04:39.374)

So I wanted to continue my international journey, let's put it that way. And I decided to, I got a job and I decided to move to Portugal. So this was 2001 to 2005. And actually this was the first time, I don't know if I'm rambling or answering questions, but anyway, this was the first time, this time I moved for a job. Okay, I moved for work. And actually I had a very hard time adjusting to Portugal that time.

it was a surprise. came as a surprise because on paper, my life was super perfect. I had a great job, earned good money, you know, all the boxes were checked, but I wasn't happy. wasn't fulfilled. So after five years trying to make it work, not making it work, I went back to Brazil, which at the time was the closest to home country that I had. So that time I moved to four.

feeling I had failed in that country where I was. That was my motivation. And fast forward eight years, I moved back to Portugal. And this time round, I moved for love because my husband is Portuguese. So I have all the different motivations you can imagine. Quite a story then. going back to when you grew up in America, what part of were you living in? What was that like? I your formative years were

My formative years were in New England. So I lived in three different places and I spent a total of 11 years. So I lived in Boston, New York, and then New Haven. then when you went back to Brazil, did you go back to where your family are from? Yeah. So when I went back to Brazil, I was around 11, 12. I went back to a state called Bahia, which is in the Northeast.

And afterwards I moved to Sao Paulo, which is the biggest city in the country and possibly the biggest city in Latin America. If not Mexico City and Sao Paulo are, you know, they, they, they're rivals in that title. And I did that to go to university. So I wanted to go to university and I wanted to go to the best university in Brazil for business.

James Doran (07:03.822)

And that's what I did. So, in Brazil, I lived in two different places. And then when you, you went to live in the UK, then was your first time moving abroad. What was that like in terms of did your university help you with that movement for? Yeah, it was quite daunting. It was, it's a very good question because I was about 16 at the time, 16, 17. And I went, I kind of

It was an excuse to travel and to live abroad. Cause I went to England to learn English. I was like completely fluent in English. was like, well, I'm going to learn English. It was funny. I was worried of an excuse. Like I knew that I only could get my parents to pay for that if I was going to study and not just, you know, wander around. So, I like to study anyway. So, so yeah, so I went to England. I stayed in a, in a city, which I will butcher the name because

The way it's pronounced is completely different from American accent, which is I'm going to do my best. Please don't take this against me. I lived in Bournemouth. Is that good enough? Bournemouth. Bournemouth. Yes, Bournemouth. Yeah. But close enough to London to go for weekends and things like that. Yeah. So that was my main motivation and France as well. So I lived in France as an exchange student. Also,

during my university years. Cause then also, you know, I wanted to experience not only a new culture, but I wanted to learn a new language. and that's when I really got the depth of learning French when I stayed there. when you, when you had to apply for those kind of courses, did you get much support from your university or your education institute you were in before? How did you have to apply for visas and the accommodation?

was all that journey like? you have boxes that had taken things to do before you moved? So when I went to England, I went on a student visa. it was, I mean, as long as you paid for the course, it was really no problem. So I don't remember it. This was a while ago, but some decades ago, I don't remember it being too difficult. Granted, things have changed a lot from then to now.

James Doran (09:25.43)

So I think that rules and the whole landscape we're talking about when I lived in the UK, this was like late 1980s, early 1990s. So it was a whole different world. Okay. This is the, we're not worrying what we're talking about today. And when I moved to France or when I lived in France for my exchange program,

I actually went within the program of my university in Sao Paulo. So they had like a partnership. So they received students from France and in France received students from Brazil. So it's kind of like, well, that's the idea of an exchange program, right? So it was, don't remember having to have any problem whatsoever with visas and all that because everything was taken care of by the university. Today.

I'm not sure that would have been the case, but back then that's how it rolled. Even when I lived in Spain, and this I remember a little bit more vividly that I had, actually one of the reasons that I didn't stay in Spain was because I wasn't on a student visa. And being on a student visa, in order to stay there holding a Brazilian passport, I would have had, and this was, look, this

I don't know if it was pre -European Union, but when I went there, it was pre -Euro. So I paid my course in Pesetas. This is how old this is. And I remember that I actually wanted to stay in Spain, but I couldn't find a job in time because I needed a company to sponsor my work visa.

I ended up moving to Portugal because that's where I found a job. And then in Portugal, I got a company to sponsor my work visa. it easier being Brazilian to get a visa in Portugal with the inherent connection of language and past or is it still quite difficult? Well, I'm not an expert in the visa application process, but I would venture to say that yes.

James Doran (11:49.742)

because of, as you mentioned, the historical past. And as of today, and we're talking April 2024, Brazilians that come to Portugal can come on a tourist visa and then they, it's called like they manifest their interest. They show their interest in staying and they can get a job and prove that they have means to support themselves.

and then go through the visa process inside the country already. This is not true for other countries. I don't think Brazilians can do that in France or the UK or anywhere else. You kind of have to have the visa prior to entering the country. So yes, I would imagine that for Brazilians, are, as of other nationalities that have an historical past with Portugal, I would imagine so. Don't quote me on that, because I'm not a specialist in that.

with the language connection might be somewhat of closer bond than other green communities just because it's not many places speak Portuguese. Yeah, you'd be surprised though. When I lived in Portugal the first time, and one of the reasons that I'm looking back right now that I think it didn't work out was that I had also this expectation that communication wise it would be easy, except

And even though it's the same language, it's kind of like, you know, someone from the deep south of the U S moving to the depth of Scotland. speak the same language, but will they be able to communicate? I don't know. You know what I mean? Because they're kind the construction is different. The, words are different, the accent, not to mention the accent. And

I remember having a very hard time communicating. And one of the issues that I suffered a lot with back then is that, you know, I used to work in marketing. So I worked in a company and, had to send emails and had to deal with internal politics and all that. And I wasn't used to the whole hierarchy thing that is very present, is still present back then even more so in

James Doran (14:16.044)

the relation, the professional relationships in Portugal. So everything is like, you, you, back then you had to treat people, a certain way, like doctor, engineer, you had to use their title or else you were being disrespectful. Now I came from learning Portuguese in Brazil where it's super laid back, very informal

It took me by surprise. So it's not only about the language, but the nuances of the language, you know? So I had a very, I remember spending so much energy before approaching someone as like, my God, how should I address this person? I don't want to. And then it's like, it's, it's a double whammy because if you address someone in an informal way and they expect you to create this formality, you're offending them. Right.

If, if on the other hand, if you are formal and they see you as a peer, you're also offending them because you are creating an unnecessary. So it's like, can't hear. So I had a very, very hard time communication wise because of that. So for daily stuff by yeah, it's fine. But when you go into the nitty gritty of professional relations and you know, and that is especially in a corporate environment.

It can get tricky. can tell you that it can get very tricky. Yeah. That's very interesting. I had a friend who seems to solving, he grew up in Germany. He moved when was 13 to the UK to study and then did his bachelor's degree in the UK. And he would always say he's fine conversationally in German, but could not do his job in German because he hasn't learned formal German. He's learned local, he's learned conversational, really didn't that native speaker.

or comes to engineering technology or, you know, business technology. He's never learned that in his home language. So I only took him when he moved back, he'd be able to do it by getting a job, but it was very much like, I don't know what any of words are, because I'm gonna have to learn them. It's got like a, a festival dictionary effectively you need to get in your own languages. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that it's very similar. So I really had.

James Doran (16:36.398)

hard job, a hard time because in my job, I had this expectation that it would be easy. And so I kind of maybe underestimated the challenges of communication. Yeah. So then going forward to your, second time going to Portugal. So obviously you'd gone back to Brazil. Was there a, you'd missed or obviously you said your partner was Portuguese. So did he move with you back to Brazil and you started the life there and

No, he never lived with me in Brazil and I lived, I moved to Portugal again, again for the second time. And this was actually the moment where I had this realization that I need to make this work. I mean, I can't just say again, I couldn't adjust again. I mean, I couldn't use the ignorance card, right? I wasn't ignorant anymore. I knew what to expect.

but I didn't have the tools to make it work. I knew I needed to do things differently, but I didn't know what and how, if that makes sense. So that's actually what prompted me to get an education, quite literally. That's why I started my master's in intercultural psychology, because I did it for me. It's like, I need to get a grip and make this work, and it didn't before.

So I need to understand what went wrong and how can I do things differently slash better. And the thing that happened was when I, you know, when I finished or during the, the masters, so many light bulbs went off and I was like, my God, I had no idea this existed. I had no idea there was this area of research. I had no idea there were acculturation strategies. I had no idea what integration was. We throw this term around so

assimilation. I had to, I use that term like everyone else uses, and then I realized I can do stuff with this. And then I kind of came to a conclusion that if this is helpful to me, I'm sure it's going to be helpful for other people. We just don't know what we don't know. And, and then kind of my, my business sense kicked in. was like, okay, how can I make this, you know, useful for other people? And

James Doran (19:01.582)

create a business out of it. that's kind of like what prompted me to help others and to do what I do today because I needed to help myself first and foremost. I think we have a strategy there because I made this podcast and myself as well. different level of my knowledge was very much on the job learning. was to academic understanding of it. I just wanted to chat to people who had some ideas and some

processes and sure you would analyze that and understand the reasons why all the the root cause of our feelings is just we're this is dark or we don't like this because you spend you know two hours in the supermarket trying to buy groceries as opposed to half an hour because you have to read different languages. my god. You know that's the practical side of it. Exactly, exactly so much yeah. I can't imagine you know I can't sometimes I tell people like

especially in France, because that was the place where I had the most challenge language -wise. I can't tell you how much money I wasted buying the wrong thing and then only realizing at home when you open the package, this is not what I wanted. And the beauty of having studied intercultural psychology is that it's not clinical psychology. don't psychoanalyze anyone.

There's no therapy or counseling. It's really the study of how we relate to groups of people being a culture and how groups relate to us and how groups relate to one another. I find that super interesting and that's how I think I can help others because that really helped me. I'm sure we'll get into it in time to find

helping us towards the end of the podcast in terms of how that can be for you all learned and understood methods and experience and help people prevent mistakes that we've all made as expats. But I'm sure we can get into the what you did in those countries in the next section of the podcast.

James Doran (21:24.366)

So welcome to session two of the podcast about being a CW. You've kind of touched a bit about your life in Portugal in terms of the professional life you've experienced and a bit about the reasons why you started your second journey in Portugal because you wanted to kind of prove to yourself that you can make things work and go about which is incredible because a lot of people might just say, I've done it, I applied it, it didn't work. You actually

went back for the second round and seemed to have won the fight you would imagine based on your still being abroad which is wonderful to hear so if you can go forward to your first adult experience living abroad when you went on your trip to the UK what was that experience like? what did you expect it to be like and how was it

James Doran (22:20.376)

So in the UK, it amazing. mean, it was really a dream come true in the UK. it was something, mean, I've, look, this was the end of the 1980s. So we didn't have internet. All I had was video clips of the Smiths and the Cure.

and all of the bands that I liked that were from the UK. So that was my reference point. One thing that I noticed, I remember like the first couple of days, I stayed at a house with a family, right? Cause I was an exchange student and I noticed one thing that was super interesting that the dinner was some kind of meat, I don't remember exactly what, and then they had baked potato, mashed potato and chips on the same.

plate. I was like, okay, can't you get enough of potatoes? And that was that was like something very, very interesting for me. And the other thing that I remember from that time, two interesting things, I think one is kind of like a language thing. I read, you know, the city I was in, and I'm going to do my best to pronounce it correctly. But this

Bournemouth, like Bourne, Bournemouth, okay, Bournemouth. Bournemouth. They have like the, it's a small town, it's like, it's small, right? So they have these under, these passages like underground, but it's not like the tube, it's not. And I learned American English. So I learned that

the transportation that goes underneath the ground is called the subway. And then I looked around, was like, they're like signs saying subway. I was like, how is there a subway here in this small town? And it's not the subway that I had one on one, because that's the underground. So I went underneath, I said, I need to see this. And no, it was just a passageway underneath like some kind of bridges.

James Doran (24:43.398)

And, and one thing that struck me as well was that, I went in the winter time. So, was, it in Brazil, I was living in Brazil at the time, you know, the days and the nights are pretty even even throughout, like they're there. The seasons are not as marked as, well, at least where I was living in Brazil, cause Brazil is huge. so like every day there would be like,

almost 12 hours of sunlight and 12 hours of darkness, right? Day and night was like almost 12 hours each. And I remember getting there and it was already almost dark at 4 .30 in the afternoon. And that was like so surprising because I was like, my God, my day is over and it's 4 .30 still. So it took a while to get used to that, but it was fine. I mean, those were the things that I remember

from those moments, but I just loved going to London and walking, and I still do, and walking around and just going to the pubs and eating pub food, I love that. Yeah, it's one of the great things about Britain is pub culture is something which I missed when I lived away because it didn't really exist in, it doesn't exist anywhere else in the way that we do

Maybe Ireland's probably the second closest place to it because it's quite similar culture of a pop culture, it's yeah, it's quite a social like second home. They're going to be in a one -square room kind of situation. It's quite nice. Especially at old traditional pubs anyway. Contrast that then with going to France. Obviously you're a bit older, studying at this point probably your degree. What was that like? Well, France was like, was completely different.

First of all, because I wasn't living with a family, so I didn't have like that support. I was living on my own in the university campus, so in the dorm. So I had to do my shopping. I had to do all that, right? I needed to kind of function a little bit more towards adulthood than I have in the previous trip. And so I remember, and you know, like going to the supermarket and this

James Doran (26:59.982)

pre -smartphone, pre -Google, you you had to rely on old school maps and things like that, right? So I remember going to the supermarket and just having no clue what to buy. No, like no clue. I did know a little bit of French, but not enough to really get by. And it was interesting because I just spoke

I remember like the first three weeks that I got there. This was like one of my toughest memories. I actually got sick during the first three weeks. I had a very bad sore throat, had a fever, and I had to go to the doctors at the university. hadn't, I didn't know, I had dictionary in hand to say I have a sore throat. I didn't know how to express that. And I was sick and I was lonely.

And I just wanted my mommy and things like when you're sick, would just, I want my mom, you know, I want, you know, some warm soup. But I was super fortunate to have, they, this is something that they did in the university. They had like buddies. So each exchange or foreign student had a French person that was like their buddy and, know, to show them around. And my buddy, Guillaume.

He actually helped me a lot. You he brought me soup and he helped me out and he kind of took care of me while I was sick. We're still friends today. This is like 30 years ago. We're still friends today. And he married my best friend, Finnish girl there. So it was, it was just, you know, this perfect combination of amazing people. and I remember it was kind of like this glimpse of being an adult. So we would have, we would go to the.

to the markets in France, the cheese markets, and they had the products that weren't like 100 % perfect that they couldn't sell. They would sell for like a bargain, and we would buy croissants, we would buy cheese, we would buy Nutella. At the time Nutella was this big thing you couldn't find everywhere. It would just have a blast and have, know, brunches and things like that. So it was like the camaraderie, you know,

James Doran (29:19.882)

In the beginning I did, I was extremely lucky because I had my buddy, you know, I had my, I had Guillaume, he really helped a lot, you know, to like choosing the classes, understanding things. So much so that at like towards the end of my stay there, I was, I was earning, you know, money teaching English to French people.

Because I needed, I wanted money to travel. I needed to make some money. like, okay, I'll teach you English. you know, and that's how it ended up. And they helped me a little bit with French as well. So I have great, great memories of, I have only good things to say. I was living in a place, in a city called Rouen, which is like, it's in Normandy. It's about an hour and a half from Paris. And it was just

perfect environment, know, like the college town and just amazing people. So I was, I think I was very lucky. Who knows? Or maybe you attract look. I don't know. That's not for me to say. wonderful. So then you went to Spain next, back to Brazil. Then you went to Spain for your master's degree, MBA, had you been working for a while before that? Yes, I had been working,

for, I think, four or five years. And then I decided to go to Spain and Spain, well, I must say this, when I was studying in France, we took a kind of like a road trip to Spain and we rented a car or I don't know, so think someone had a car and we drove down. And the moment I got into Barcelona, I just, my jaw dropped. was like, I love this city. I still do.

I love this place. I'm going to have to live here at least once in my life. That's for sure. And this was like, I was 21. I had that in the back of my mind. So then I worked and you know, for about four or five years that I had that Barcelona in the back of my mind. So when I, I had in that time, the objective to climb the corporate ladder, which I did and you know, go up the, the many different steps

James Doran (31:40.494)

to do that in corporations, I knew and I wanted, and it was also a good excuse, quote, unquote, to travel abroad and to do your MBA somewhere else, right? I did have the English and actually many people say, why don't you go to the States and do your MBA in the States? And I know I've had enough of the States. I've lived there for 11 years. I don't need to learn English. I want to learn a new language and I want to go to Barcelona.

So that was like the driving force. And I said, okay, what can I do here in Barcelona that coincides with what I want to do in my life? And then the MBA happened. And it was amazing because I took a bilingual MBA program. So I needed to study Spanish and I do these crazy things to myself where I was like, I remember that my internship

for my summer, so we had like during the summer we had to do an internship. I decided to do it all in Spanish. Yeah, totally in Spanish. I was like, I'm gonna do this, I don't care, it's gonna work out. So the interviews, I did like a research for a professor, everything was in Spanish and it was tough. But again, I had loads of help. I made some amazing Spanish friends.

and they helped me out and they, you know, they coached me through it and I made my share of mistakes. People were patient with me, but I think that when you show interest, legitimate interest, and you show that you're doing your part to learn the language, the door's open. You know, people are patient. People will, you know, will help you out. I firmly believe that. So in Spain,

The first year was super tough because academically it was very, very demanding. So I didn't get to enjoy that much during the first year. And I take my studies very seriously. But the second year was like, you know, flying solo. I already knew the language. It was like, and I was very sad to leave actually. would have liked to stay. So whenever I get a chance, Barcelona, I go to Barcelona. Cause I love that city.

James Doran (34:02.55)

But yeah, it's so beautiful. was actually in a wedding not too far from the earth a few years ago. And we went to Girona Ring and further out to the coast. was a beautiful place. I've been quite a few times to Barcelona and I really enjoy going back every time. I got to visit my Brazilian friend who was doing an MBA in Barcelona when I was there last. That's interesting. Maybe the same place I did. Who knows? Maybe. Yeah. I can double check and find out for you and I'll let you know. He's also been a guest on this podcast as well. So even more of

Well when you first arrived what were your expectations of Barcelona as a tourist compared to then being someone who was living there? Did you feel it was different? you in different neighborhoods that you would have thought about being in? What was that kind of... you have the change of visiting somewhere and it being all amazing because you get all the highlights of it compared to living somewhere where you have to go and shop and you have to basically adult hard.

when you go to live somewhere for more than a month, perhaps? Yeah, that's a great question because for sure, I I didn't have a car. I'm not brave enough to use one of those bikes, the Vespas that they use in Barcelona a lot. was like, there's no way I'm getting in traffic with that. So I needed to rely on public transportation. my decision on where to live had more to do with like, how can I get to school and

you know, easily and fast using public transportation. Then again, also, you know, you're on a student budget. So that was a big adjustment that, you know, I had, I used to live on my own and I had to room up with roommates again, because, you know, there was two years not working because I was studying full time. That was a big adjustment as well.

So my decision on where to live had a lot to do with being close or being strategically available to go and come back from school. That was like the main decision driver. so yeah, mean, it was like, are parts of Barcelona which I would have loved to live, but it was like completely not feasible at all, because that would have taken like, I don't know, an hour and a half every morning. That's not doable.

James Doran (36:23.749)

so this decision was an interesting one. And again, when you do live there, it's, it's life, right? No matter where you are, there's life and there's going to be good days, bad days, marvelous days, you know, I don't know if I can say bad words here, like horrible days. and, and that's kind of part of life, but I must tell you this, that during those

And

worst moments and just looking at the view of Barcelona as like, okay, I know why I'm doing this. I know what I'm doing this for. Regroup and go back. So I had those moments and that's the thing that if you know the purpose of what you're doing, you can get, you can bounce up again from those moments because you have an objective. You have a goal. need that kind of grounding in, in whether it's a location like you had, or it can be, I don't know.

some media or someone you speak to. don't know about when you were living in Spain, but speaking with your family back home with time difference and technology, how easy was it for you to call your family or friends? So obviously having worked there for so long and stuff. Yeah. Back then it wasn't easy. Look, when I studied in Spain, that's when I got my first cell phone and it was super expensive to use

And I remember like it was technology wasn't, it was basically phone calls. I don't think we wrote letters anymore, but it was basically phone calls. But the thing is that what I did in this specific place and in others, like in France, that we create, because we don't have that much access to our family and friends back home, we end up creating our own community. So we help one another. And you know, that's kind of like

James Doran (38:48.556)

The other side of the coin, it's good to talk to family and friends and it's great, but it's also great to create a community and to create friendships that I have until today. I have friends and we have a WhatsApp group and we meet up like every two or three years in a different country. Not everyone, of course, because it's a big class, but like the core, like our little group. So it's something that we keep on.

They're not people that I talk to every day, but every once in a while, you know, when major milestones, someone gets married or someone has a kid or someone gets divorced or something like that, we talk to one another and that's really valuable. think that's, know, those are friendships that stay for life. all friendships need to have the frequency of your day -to -day life, but it's knowing that you've got someone who you can count on who's there

especially today, it's a phone call away or they're Skype or whatever you use. Whereas you're right, you that's probably one of the biggest barriers that people have today moving abroad. It's so easy to stay in contact with people you already know from home and you spend less time then finding more people to hang out with where you're living and building that network, building that community where you are for that. You need some help in, know, whether it's a government.

document you need help filing or something you don't know as many people to help you or if you are find yourself on Wednesday night with nothing to do you don't know as many people to go for a drink with or play sport with or go to cinema or something you haven't got the the depth of network as maybe you had before that communication became so much easier everyone back home and everyone had it in their hand because you kind of had to make

because there was no other option. It'd be quite nice if people could remove them from when you get abroad for the first few weeks, for the first month, just say, I'm not going to call you. Yeah. And I'm going to sound very old school and kind of like, back in the day. I I loved technology. Without technology, I wouldn't be able to talk to you, right? So that's that. But what I feel and what I see with my own relationships is that

James Doran (41:15.038)

It can become more superficial because it's so available. it can become more superficial if you don't, if you're not careful. So, it's like, most people who are listening might not even know what it's like to sit down and write a letter, like pen on paper. I used to have when I was in my early teens, pen pals.

Look that up on Google, this existed. people from other countries that we would exchange letters, and we had letters that were three, five pages long. So because we would tell, so I'm not saying to go back to that, but what I'm saying is that because it's so easy, it's easier to keep it on the superficial side and not really show and share.

as much as you might need. Yeah, it's just the latency and response as well, because I had a pen pal, but we used email. So you still don't response quite quickly because it was quite instantaneous. But if you had to write a letter, you just go post it. That took a week to arrive and then we had to read it, translate it, probably write one back. would probably be a month between letters, I imagine. So it was more of a slow burner, which is, I guess, a lot. it used to be, can I go forward then to your time in Portugal?

First of had you visited when you were living in Spain? And when you moved there, were you anticipating more of a Brazilian culture with the shared language and the shared history or was it completely different? Yeah. So I had visited before because I have family here. But the thing is that I'm not your typical Brazilian person, right? So I've lived in many different countries. So to be quite honest,

I usually didn't resonate too much with the typical Brazilian group. So I was kind and this is something third cultural adult kids experiences, like it's hard to find your tribe, whatever, you know, like your group, because you're not like typical, I wasn't like typical Brazilians, but I wasn't like typical Americans either. Back then, had I known, you know, if we had social media back then, I would have probably like found

James Doran (43:40.792)

third cultural people. So I had visited here. I knew the country as a tourist, but living here is completely different, right? When you come as a tourist and would come to live. So actually one of the things that I think that I underestimated, and this is, I see many people do this, is when you go to

that is quote unquote similar to your original country, you might underestimate the challenges. And at that time, I didn't know how to identify the cultural shock face. I didn't even know it existed, to be quite honest. I just knew like it was hard to make friends.

you know, and now I know because I've studied all this and all that, but back then I was like, but I can't make friends. and even the friends were superficial. It's, and basically for me, the first time I moved here, it was quite hard. I didn't know that back then. And I know now is because what I wanted out of life was something that country, the country.

probably couldn't give me, which was to go up the corporate ladder. So I probably didn't, I probably know I didn't think this through when I decided to move. So this is one thing that I see many people make is not think about how the move and the location aligns with our goals in life. I mean, many people don't even know what their goals are in life, right? But

But we all want something, even when we can't articulate it, but we all want something, right? We want to be somewhere in a manner or do something. And this place at that time did not align with what I wanted out of life. I only, this is 2020 vision, okay? This is me looking back to that there. Back then I had no idea. On paper it made sense. I speak the language, I have family.

James Doran (46:04.128)

I got a job, it pays well, blah, blah, blah. On paper it was super. But had I known then what I know now, I probably would have done things differently. So there's a kind of foresight of, know, does this help me on my journey to, you know, the crystal one? think every time I make a decision, I try and ask myself, it makes me healthier, happier, or wealthier.

If it does one of those things, then it's a good decision. If does not do this thing, it's probably a bad decision. Chop it for them to do a happier bit so it's good. Yeah, that's way to look at it. Yeah. Is it taking me closer to where I want to be or not? Or is it taking me further away? Or am I just standing still? Because that could be also an option. And I don't think there's a wrong or right decision. It's just being conscious of your decision and the trade -offs.

Yeah, it's aligning it with your goals. Your goals could be to live in as many countries as possible. You might not progress professionally, but you progress culturally in your ability to understand how different people work because you've expanded, you go quite wide as opposed to quite tall, which you wanted to go up as opposed to along, which is, I guess it's not a wrong direction. It's just a different direction to you wanted to achieve. So then when you came back the second time,

Did you have a different anticipation of what you needed to do to, or to, I guess, align yourself with the goals you had? Yes. Yes, for sure. I mean, my goals were completely different. I was in a completely different phase in life. My priorities, my values were different. What I wanted out of life was different. and I took an approach of, okay, I need to understand what went wrong.

So I don't make the same mistakes. I mean, we're always gonna make mistakes. We're always gonna make mistakes. That's sure. But I don't wanna make the same ones. I wanna learn from the ones that I make. So that's when I realized that, okay, I need to approach this in a different way. Call it getting older, call it possibly a little bit wiser. But I said, I need resources to help me navigate this.

James Doran (48:24.332)

So I don't fall in the same holes and make the same mistakes I did. That's when I went back to school and got my master's in intercultural psychology, which I did first and foremost for me, for my own help to help myself and to make this work. And then the added bonus was that it helped me in other things as well.

I think that I had something that I've been reading recently, a growth mindset, you know, like a growth mindset versus a fixed mindset. And I think that's super important in general in life, but especially when you're navigating these challenges, because you are going to fall down. You are going to make mistakes. You are going to say the wrong thing to the wrong person.

That's going to happen, but it's about gracefully saying, I'm so sorry, how can I make this right and learn from it? And how can I not do this again? How can I try a different way and not be yourself too much about it in the process? No, I completely agree with that. it's, yeah, being kind to yourself is probably a lesson we can all learn or kind to, because even if you're kind, you think you're kind, you can always be a bit nicer. We're all our biggest critics.

looking to find fault in what we do because it's an easy way to scapegoat for not pushing ourselves further. It's a good reason to not do anything so wonderful. If you wish to kind of elaborate on in your time abroad before we're going to go into the next section about advice for people.

James Doran (50:14.702)

So another one from Dictionary 3, podcast, a review of your time. So Debra, this is where I kind of ask my guests if they could go back to when they first started doing abroad or the first move and give themselves a bit of advice. What would it be and what would you tell yourself? And guess for each of your moves, can be something different. So to start with, when you first went to the UK, you're going to need a lot of support in terms of the accommodation you had and it's going to be a lot more structured. Would you

told yourself something different? Would you have tried to extract more out of the experience? No, think honestly, think that that experience was, I think I got the juice out of it. So it was like, it was exactly what I wanted. I was young, I had the support. One thing that I think that I needed and I did have was the support of, you know, a family environment.

And again, I was lucky that I was nice family. I could have been, we're not always lucky to be with nice people, right? So I was lucky in that respect. And also this has nothing to do with like, kind of like in life in general is I kind of always trusted my intuition. So whenever I remember going to clubs and going, you're like, I'm not going to go tonight or I'm not going to go out with that person or you

Let's take another way back home. These little things is always trusting and at that age, not succumbing to peer pressure. Like, just because you're doing whatever. Yeah, but that's not for me. And I'm okay if you don't like it. It's like, I think that could have hindered a lot because I saw a lot back then. Yeah, thank you, but no thank you. And being okay with it and not, you can do whatever you want. yeah, but.

No, just don't come to bear pressure. It's not for me. It's not for me. Fine. I think this is true in general in life. But in that trip, especially I thought that because like 17, 16, 17. So that's like a very ripe age for these kinds of things. Was that some of the situation when you went to France then? Because you were a little bit older, but still. I think that also to my memory, it was like, I think I got a very good mix of

James Doran (52:36.15)

academic life, you know, actually, you know, doing the work and also having fun, you know, traveling and going to parties and being adventurous. remember my friend and I, my Finnish friend and I, we were best friends at the time. And we decided that we wanted to go to Strasbourg and boom, bought the ticket. remember that was the first time I realized that I knew how to speak French because

I had a little argument with the person selling me the train ticket. I was like, yeah, you know, when you learn a language, when you dream in the language, when you can fight in the language. So now I'm certified. knew it was me. So it was, I think that, you my advice would be in that situation is strive for balance. I mean, this sounds so cliche, but you know,

And this, I could have used this advice maybe in Spain because academically it was super hard and the first year was very, very difficult. A lot of pressure. So I think I could have tempered a bit more of fun in the first year in Spain. But also, you know, we have our timings. Sometimes it takes a little bit longer to adjust. It is what it is, you know, and ask for help when needed.

I think that's kind of like, ultimately in these, in these situations, if you need help, ask for it. I would say ask all the time because sometimes people say, I don't want to sound like, even when you're like, I remember the first time I went to Germany, I was 18. was, I was a tourist. didn't live there and I haven't, I had no idea. I don't know how to speak German. I just learned the basic, like, please thank you. Things like that. Just to

try to be polite. I would look at the menu. I had no idea what I was looking at. I just ordered tomato soup for like five days straight, because that's the only thing I could understand, tomaten soup. But then I realized I have to ask. So I asked people, like, look, could you please help me out? And then they did. So it's like, people don't read your mind. So ask, even if it sounds stupid. And some people might call you stupid. That's OK.

James Doran (55:03.406)

Just ask So I think I follow a lot people quite enjoy being needed and it can be something which you know You might feel stupid asking but for them makes them feel really great because they've helped someone and I think you are new to a country and need to a different language You'll get what you need faster if you ask for help And you won't then get tortured. Okay, you might and you might learn something or make a

Yeah, I did in the process. For sure I did. Made many friends. And it was like, and one way I like to put it today with a little bit more knowledge, instead of saying like, I don't speak German in this case. Instead of saying that, you can say like, look, I'm still doing my best to learn German. Could you please help me out? So this little tweak in how you approach it, it just shows the person that you're not that obnoxious foreigner.

who doesn't want to speak the language. You're actually trying to speak the language, but you don't have the skills at the moment. I know that as an English person, it's, you know, we're often the most ignorant with language because I did learn a bit of German and a bit of Swedish, but I'd always then start off with, my German isn't so good, which is my German's not very good. I didn't be like, I need help with this. and just all like,

a bit of a Varsist and an insert English word after it. So it's like, is the word in German? So I can use it in future, which always kind of helped. it's like, when I learn trying to language, I try and learn the phrase, what is the English word in that language? And then you can at least start to, to get people on your side of you're not ignorant. You're just learning, which is the kind of a paradigm shift in how people look at you.

approach and interact with you because they go actually you're not being rude you just don't know yet because you're new or it's hard it's a different language it's a lot of words a lot of sounds a lot of syllables you're not used to saying when you're mouthing Swedish the number seven is hulå and the hulå is not a thing in English language so I'm sure it's a lot of languages there's different nuances like that as well but it's definitely interesting to to experience for sure I don't know you want to share a bit about what

James Doran (57:20.654)

what you do to help other expats on the journey as well. It's a good chance for you to kind of share how you can assist people outside of this podcast. So where people can find your work. Taking from my masters, then I decided to help other people. all these resources helped me. And after the masters, I realized that I could create a bridge between the research and the theory into practical, like how do I do stuff?

I've been working since 2016 with people planning to move abroad and adjusting after arrival. work with people, I don't work with any specific country because as I've lived in many countries, these processes are transversal. It might be a little bit difficult, more difficult in one sense in a certain culture, a little bit easier in others, but overall they're common commonalities.

So I help people navigate these things, these processes, and I've realized over time that it's very important also to prepare for the move. Not only help people after the move, but the better you know how to prepare, how to create closure, how to, you know, part with your things, how to decide where to live, all of these things. So I've

working one -on -one in group programs. And I have a membership called Expat Journey Program that has a pre -move roadmap and a post -move roadmap so people can navigate from the moment they have this kind of link inkling, like, I think I want to live abroad. What should I do? Until they feel happy, content, and adjusted in their new location. So.

That's, think that resource encapsulates like my almost eight, nine years working with people from completely different backgrounds, different countries, helping them have this roadmap. Okay, first you do this, then you do that, then you do that, then you do that, then you do that, then you do that. Of course, respecting everyone's individuality, but it's basically like tools and resources to help people. And then

James Doran (59:47.114)

life workshops, Q &A sessions, a community with people who, because it's very important to have that community, it can be very, very lonely. With a community -based approach, where not only me, but other people who are further down the line or also in the same moment can help one another in the Expat Journey. That's why it's called Expat Journey Program. Wonderful. Well, great.

Is there a website people can find you on for that? Yes, xpatjourney .com. So pretty easy. It'll be linked below as well. Don't worry, except we can find it in the show notes or in the YouTube description. And people can learn more about my other programs and more about me and want to get in touch in deborah .hab .com. Wonderful. I'll link both those and I'll also link your Instagram account for people to find you because that's how we found each other. So that's wonderful.

Exactly. And so thank you for your time and thank you for sharing your journey and your many, many countries you've lived in and quite a unique journey being, as you said, child of a third culture. Third cultural kid. Third cultural kid, yeah, exactly. The exact terminology got wrong. But I guess it's quite a popular thing, especially with migration happening now all over the world. There's a lot of third culture kids and I guess throughout history there's always been that with

with movement of people and industry and different economic booms all over the world of driven people to live abroad. So it's really interesting to understand that a bit more and get more empathy on what it's like to experience that. thank you for that. if you have enjoyed the podcast and found some little bit of information, please let us know in the comments. Please do support us by subscribing to it and following us on social media.

have or want to get involved with. And as always, we'll see you next time for The Expat Pod.