E073

James (00:06.168)

So hello, welcome to the Expat pod. My name is James, your host and today I'm joined by Jen and Jen Wheeler, I think because of a Facebook post I put into a group and you wonderfully responded, which is very kind of you and said that you'd love to be a guest and we've now managed to carve some time together to chat and share about your amazing story. So if you would like to just share where you're from and where you've lived and what you do, that'd be amazing.

Yeah, sure. So I'm originally from the US. I grew up in a town just southwest of Chicago called Naperville. And when I moved, I first moved abroad back in 2012. So I first moved to Zurich in Switzerland and I was there for just over a year. And then I moved to Paris and I was there for about three years. And then I was about four years in the UK.

And then in 2019, moved to, I moved to Strasbourg in the East of France, which is where I've been and where I'm going to stay because I really did love it here. I've changed careers a couple of times, but now I run a travel blog called Dambling in Jetlag. It's about, know, life and travel sort of in France. And that's, you know, that's what I love to do. And so I'm happy I kind of get to do that now. So yeah.

incredible. And I'm sure we'll pick all your many kind of journeys in the podcast.

James (01:41.198)

So hello, welcome to section one of the podcast about getting there. So Jen, essentially this is everything you needed to do up until you had to move. But one thing I always had to ask my guests is, is there why? So what was the reason you wanted to live abroad? Was it something that happened in your childhood? Did you travel a lot or was there something which made you want to go, I want to live somewhere else or in your instance?

Well, in my case, actually, it was sort of something entirely spontaneous. I actually, I was looking to do, because I was in my PhD, and so I actually, my whole life I never really traveled that much. I did some travel in the US and stuff like that, but really not at all. Never went abroad or anything like that. And I was in my PhD, it was coming to an end, and I had to decide what I was going to do

And so I kind of had picked out some universities and some labs and things that I wanted to do because I was a researcher in organic chemistry. And I had this list of places I was going to apply to. And just in a conversation, my advisor had actually proposed to me. She goes, well, why don't you send an application to this professor in Zurich? And I thought, I don't know if he's going to take me. I don't know anything about it. And on a whim,

I just sent in my CV, I sent in my application and I said, you know, would you be willing, you know, do you have a spot available? Sent me an email saying yes, but I would like you to apply for some international funding to come. And so I applied for a National Science Foundation grant and I got it. And then all of a sudden, like a year later, I found myself in Zurich. Like there wasn't...

ton of thought put into it, to be honest with you. It was very spontaneous. And then I just never left. I never went back to the States. just, yeah, it just kind of, it just kept going like that. It's just, you know, a series of events and things like that that kind of just kept, you know, I don't want to use the word snowball, like it's negative, but like, you know, it's just like one thing happened after another, I got a job and things like that. And so then I just ended up staying, but it was entirely...

Jen (04:07.51)

I'd always thought about living abroad and traveling and doing those kinds of things, but I think I was so kind of focused on my work and my studies and things I thought that it just had never, it had never really occurred to me. And I just sent in the application and well and behold, a year later, I found myself at the Zurich airport wondering where do I go from here? That's kind of how it happened. I really did arrive at the airport with just a bunch of luggage.

and I had a hotel room and that was about it. I didn't even know how to get to the university. didn't, you know.

once you'd applied and obviously found out you'd been accepted, did the university help you in terms of supporting you with visa applications, with accommodation, with travel, or was that all kind of off your own steam?

That was, so they did help me a little bit with the visa because they do have to provide support for you, like physically going to be there. when you're, cause it wasn't necessarily a student visa. And in that particular case, it was very, it was very specific cause I was being paid by the U S so I wasn't receiving a salary from Switzerland. So that visa was very, very specific. And, but they did have to, they do have to provide you with

documents as proof that you will be working at the university. So that's kind of one thing I guess I've kind of learned over the years I would say is that understanding your visa, understanding your rights and what you're kind of entitled to is exceptionally important. when I had done that, I had no idea. I showed up, it was the Swiss, I think it was the Swiss embassy in Chicago without an appointment.

Jen (05:54.934)

and just asked, said, they told me I could come in. Do you think you could put my visa and my passport, please? I'm leaving soon. And like, you don't have an appointment? And I said, no, I just, they just told me I could come. That's really, that has never happened in any other of the places I lived. It was just, you know, the building was empty and whatever. So it was, you I was lucky that, you know, they didn't send me away or anything like that. But yeah, I,

They helped me with the visa accommodation. No, definitely didn't help me. They didn't help me at all. When I arrived, there was kind of like a change in administrative assistance and things like that. there was kind of some confusion. So, I kind of just booked a hotel. I booked my flight. And then when I got there, I was like, how do I get in an apartment?

You know, and so there was actually some people I worked with that helped me. They let me rent a room for a couple of months and then I was able to find my own apartment. They kind of showed me how to do it in Switzerland, which is kind of like applying for a job. But I found it's kind of that way in France and it was kind of that way, maybe a little bit less in the UK. yeah, they didn't, no, no, no, I was kind of on my own.

You know, I just booked a flight and kind of just showed up. sent an email to my boss saying, I'm arriving this day. I don't know. Where do you want me to, you know, what do want me to do? So it was a bit of a, you know, I really, I really didn't, I was very lost. Like, you know, it was very lost when I arrived, yeah, I eventually found, I eventually found accommodation in.

In Zurich, a lot of people speak English, so I didn't really have to worry about German too much, or Swiss German, I would say. So I would say on that regard, it really wasn't that big of a deal. I think it would probably be a little bit more of a big deal in France. That is definitely like if you fall on a landlord that doesn't speak any English, then you're going to have a bit of an issue. Zurich was very, depending where you are in France, of course.

Jen (08:09.518)

Zurich is so international. It really wasn't an issue at all.

You said you're being paid in the US but living in Switzerland. Did you have a method of buying things that were already set up? Did you have a bank here in Switzerland or did you have a good international bank to think in order to be able to live? It's assuming people might think about if they're not getting paid in the local currency for instance.

Yeah, so that was a huge issue. was actually one of the reasons. So it was actually a two-year grant and I ended up, one of the reasons I ended up leaving because of how complicated it was. at the time there was like a transfer. So as an American citizen then, I couldn't really open an account in Switzerland, bank account. So I got some...

some half account with the post office where I could transfer US dollars from my US account to my Swiss account. there was a way back then you would use the, I think it was XP something, and you would transfer, you could transfer it through this portal where the fees were a lot less. And

gosh, it was just terrible because I was constantly watching the rates, constantly watching the fees and things like that. And my Swiss bank account, so it was in Swiss francs obviously, it didn't really work outside Switzerland. So at the time my boyfriend was in Spain doing his postdoc and my bank card didn't work in Spain. So because it wasn't Visa, it wasn't MasterCard, it was some plus.

Jen (09:48.406)

or something like that, I don't know. It had absolutely no value anywhere. And so I was mostly on my American card, because back then Revolut didn't exist, all these kind of things that we now have that I use religiously, that didn't exist back, know, or didn't exist, or was that like 12 years ago, 13 years ago, that just that kind of stuff, was not, it wasn't very easy. And, you know,

They didn't want to give me, nobody wanted to give me an account because it was at that time there was a lot of issues with Americans kind of, I don't know if they were hiding money, I don't know, but they didn't really want to give accounts to Americans. Not saying that you can't, it was just extraordinarily difficult and I needed something quick because I needed a phone, I needed an apartment, I needed all these things so I couldn't hassle like arguing with these banks, you know, and that some of those accounts in Switzerland, my God, they were so expensive. It was just like...

Fresh guns.

Jen (10:44.78)

I don't feel comfortable giving that much money for a bank account. Like, it's not worth it.

You have to pay for a bank account in the UK, as you've been aware of since living in the UK, but it's not a thing. then when you look abroad, it's like, oh yeah, you paid like $30 a year or something to have a bank account. But you have to have a bank account, so you shouldn't have to pay for it. You're paying just for the need of it. It's really quite annoying.

that's probably after the visa, that's the next biggest thing that you really have, I would say, have to take into account is your finances and your bank account. Like if you can't hold something in multiple currencies or you can't transfer without tons of fees, you got to find something else. Cause in most countries, they won't even let you open an account until you arrive. So then like you're at the airport, you're at the stuff you have to get, you know, you have to get the currency and if you can't get it at home,

you know, if there's no exchange place or anything like that, you know, yeah, those fees will definitely add up. And so...

separate tax for being the non-local or it's an expat tax or an immigrant tax.

Jen (11:52.526)

Now I use Revolut, I have that, I use that and that has helped out a lot, especially like when I moved from the UK back to France. That was like a that was a huge saver because all of a sudden I could work in, you know, I could work in euros and pounds and things like that. And it was a lot easier and it's just, you got to find a way to sort, you really got to find a way to sort that out before you leave because there's so many options now.

Every country has some version of online banking or something like that that you can temporarily use while you sort out your, you know, the bank account in your new country. And yeah, and like, you know, and if it's online banking, things like that now, they also give you, they give you like an I-Ban. They actually give you like all the information. So you could technically give that information to a landlord or to...

an electricity company, could do something, you could actually do something with these accounts that at least it temporary holds you over, know, it's a temporary hold over until you can get an actual account sorted out. But yeah, that was an absolute nightmare. That was one of the reasons I loved Switzerland, but that was just causing me so much stress. was just like, has to be easier way to, you know, it was just almost impossible. It was almost impossible to manage there because...

Just I was receiving funding from the US and it, yeah, it was a bit, it was a bit difficult.

So then going forward to your second move to Paris then was that? you had to still move to the EU, so what was the visa process like in that sense?

Jen (13:27.054)

That was interesting, that visa process. So that was entirely different. The bureaucracy there was a little bit more in Switzerland. That's the one thing I have to say is like, I did have to renew that visa one time and I didn't even have to speak to the guy. just turned over the paperwork. It was so easy. But when I did the French version, it was the French visa.

In that particular case, I was on what's called Mary Curie Fellowship, so I had gotten to go work as a second postdoc in Paris. so I was in Zurich, but the visa place was all the way in Geneva, so it was about a three hour journey by train to go there and get the visa, and they had a lot more requirements. They needed original copies of all my diplomas.

They needed, it was just an endless mound of paperwork. So, I mean, was just, you know, they want to know where you're going to live. They want to know all these kinds of things, a lot of information that you might not have yet. Of course, you can just, you can say that you don't know and they'll understand, you know, they wanted, you know, I had to turn in all my documents of me living in Switzerland. where I lived at...

my visa, all of those documents had to come. I had to order a copy of my PhD, my master's degree, my undergraduate degree, and they needed the original versions and multiple copies of every single thing. And then I needed support from the university and all that kind of stuff. had documents and things they had to fill. And that wasn't like... I think that took a couple of weeks.

Whereas the Swiss one, was just like when it was ready, I just could show up. But I had to make an appointment. I had to go all the way to Geneva to pick it up twice, once for the interview. And then I had to go back a second time to pick up the actual visa. I remember when I did get approved, I was in an interview room with the Swiss. It's not like an interview room, like they're going to reject you. They just want to verify that all the documents are correct. And so then she sends me to a Winto to go pick up.

Jen (15:42.242)

my visa, it's a French part of Switzerland, so it's like a half Swiss, half French. Half of the efficiency is there. They decide they're going to go on coffee break. So in front of me, there's a line, you know, I'm the first one there and they've decided they're going to close the window and they're going on coffee break, you know, and it's just a small screen, but you can see them right there and they're standing right there and they've decided it's the afternoon and they're going on coffee break. stand in there about 30, 40 minutes before they decide to come back, open up the window and then just put the visa in my passport.

which is very different to something like in the German part of Switzerland, which would never happen, Efficiency is number one, but that wasn't so much the case. Once you do get to these countries, I had to validate my visa on arrival. In Switzerland, it was very smooth. You just kind of, arrive, I arrived, and I just went to the local, I don't know, I forget what it was, the local prefecture. want to use that word, because that's what you use in France.

and you just validate your visa, hey, I've arrived and they look at your documents and that's it. But in France, had, there was quite a bit like, you you arrive to validate your visa, you have a health checkup, you have all of these kinds of things. It's kind of like an endless list of stuff you have to do when you arrive. You get an appointment at the local prefecture or wherever you are. There's kind of a lot of paperwork that kind of goes into that because if you don't validate

And of course in France you need all your train tickets, need your plane tickets, you need everything that you show that you arrived on, the date that you said you were going to arrive, et cetera, et cetera. France can be a little bit tricky because sometimes you pay before or depending on the visa and sometimes like, it's free and then you pay when you arrive. It's not free. so that's the only thing you have to be careful is that some of those visas, they're not free. It depends which visa you have and then when you pay, but no visa is ever free.

And then going to the UK, obviously you had a European visa perhaps, but did you need to change anything in order to move to the UK?

Jen (17:46.19)

that was much harder than the other two. Because in that particular case, I was on a work visa. So I needed a sponsor then. So I was working for, I got a job at Eli Lilly in Surrey, just outside of London. Even though I had an EU visa and they were in the EU at that time, it didn't matter because my passport was from the United States. That was quite stressful. There was lawyers involved. They had to show at that time that

There is no EU person or person within the, you know, within the whatever, the EU zone that is qualified for that job. Like they've done a certain number of interviews. The post has been open to all of Europe for a certain period of time. And at that time, they didn't know that. So actually I had gotten a job. They had to reopen it. And then they had to redo interviews to show that I was the most qualified candidate.

And so, you know, even though I had the job, I had signed the contract, they actually had to backtrack and do all of that because they weren't aware. And that's something that I've kind of, you know, now I don't have that problem now, but like when I was interviewing for jobs and things like that, that was something I was like, is your company capable of handling somebody who is not from the EU? And, you know, do you have experience in that? Do you know what to do? Because if they don't know what to do,

you might not have a job, you might have an issue at the end. anyway, so there was lawyers involved and they put a sponsorship forward for me and there was letters and of course things like that from the company and I applied for the work visa. so in that particular case I had to pay before I came, so that was about 6,000 pounds. So half of that was for...

the five-year visa. So in that particular case, I had a five-year visa. So I didn't have to renew it during the five years. I could just live on that particular resident card for that period of time, and then I had to pay for the healthcare. I didn't have to do that in France. I didn't have to do a lot in Switzerland, but I had to do that in the UK, which makes sense because most countries who have some sort of national healthcare, you may have to pay.

Jen (20:13.614)

your contribution for the number of years that you were there. So it tallied up about 6,000 pounds, you and I had to notify my bank and things like that because you know, had to it. So I had to pay it in twice actually because my bank didn't allow it. So I had to pay the first part, let the transaction go through. So it took me about three or four hours just to pay for the visa. And cause they're just like, why do you need so much money for a visa? And yeah, that's, that's.

That's the other thing is like, you know, I had confirmed with my job before I said, well, who's going to pay for that visa? Are you going to sponsor me and pay for that? Like that's a lot of money, you know? And you know, if I lose my job, I'm, you know, 6,000 pounds out, right? So luckily they were okay with that. And that's what they had offered to pay and do all that kind of stuff. But not every job does that. There are some jobs, you know, where you have to pay, you have to pay for yourself.

But once I got my visa, in that particular, I didn't have really much of an interview. It was all online. And then there was like, I think it was called TLC, TLS, something connect or something like that. And I just went to this third party in Paris. turned in my passport and it was, my job had applied for an expedited visa for it to be expedited. So I had it within like two weeks. I picked up my passport and once I got to the UK,

They had a resident card waiting for me. It was sent to some post office and that's all I had to do. I didn't have to do anything when I got there. That part was very, very easy. But the first part was like very stressful with all the paperwork. I I had to like record every place I had ever been in the world and things like that and every detail, which, you know, France and Switzerland didn't ask, but they were, the UK was very detailed. Every flight I ever took taken in the last 10 years or whatever.

was.

Jen (22:09.526)

It was a sick application. In that particular case, I was working in the UK as someone who wasn't an EU citizen. So that is far more complicated than coming in on a family visa, a talent visa, anything like that. Your rights are, everything is very limited. And so they have to, you know, they have to, they have to triple check everything and whatever. So on the other hand, despite being less complicated, I had a lot less rights than I did with the other visas because I was,

I lost my job, I had 60 days to leave, et cetera, et cetera. I was very strict on what, not eligible for unemployment, this kind of thing. I was very, very strict on what I could and could not do with... Even within my own company, couldn't change job titles. It was a bit different, but... I mean, once you get there, they don't give you the hassle. They don't give you the hassle with appointments. Like in France, I had so many appointments for visas and stuff all the time. It was a bit tough with that.

Wonderful. And is there anything else, I guess, when you moved back to France then after that? what was that? Were you a French citizen then or were you becoming one once you'd moved? What was that like for you? Because was post-Brexit, I guess.

No, they hadn't officially, you didn't officially leave yet. The boat, yeah, I was there for the, I arrived just when the boat had happened and then they had left after I had already come back to France. on that particular, so this was a bit different. So when I came back to France, I came back on a family visa or a marriage visa. So while I was living in the UK, my husband or then my fiance was still in Paris. So we were commuting back and forth London and in Paris.

So I applied for a long stay family visa. It was a little bit complicated. we had gotten, because of our nationality situation, we couldn't get married anywhere. So we couldn't get married in France. We couldn't get married in the UK. In the US, it was outside the EU at the time. for him, the US marriage, it would have just cost, you know, it's like, I heard stories of people paying over a thousand just to get it validated.

Jen (24:16.534)

And so we ended up getting married in Denmark. So the paperwork to kind of prove all of that, we had, course, all the documents and things like that, but there was a few extra things that I had to supply. It sort of happened in Paris is when I went to this third party, but it was also in the UK for France is you don't really go to the embassies anymore. You don't go to the consulates for the visa. They sent it to a third party. So you have to deal with people who don't like their job.

This woman, she was like, you know, I turned in my application, I had an appointment and things like that. And she was determined to find mistakes on my application. She did everything. She goes, if I find three, you have to redo everything. And I said, you don't have to worry because I've already lived in France and I have my computer and I have copies of all of my documents in my bag, blank documents in my bag. So whatever you need, I can reseal it out. And then all of a sudden she didn't find any mistakes.

I mean, was so simple, it's like, you said Arlington Heights, but you wrote I-L instead of Illinois. I was like, okay. And I was like, there's no space for me to write Arlington Heights, Illinois for where I was born, like, you know, or the hospital I was born at, and, you know, she just wasn't having it. And, you know, she's like, usually married people live together. And so why is your husband not here? You know, and so was very...

very invasive and she was just questioning the marriage. was quite, you know, we knew each other 14 years, like it wasn't, you know. And so the visa was free, but when I arrived in France yet, was a $250 fee, 250 euro fee. I had to do the validation. had, this was quite different. I had integration courses that I didn't have before. So I had to sit through four days of integration courses. had a French test that I had to pass.

A1 was the minimum that I had to pass on arrival. So I basically arrived and then a couple of weeks later, the letters started coming in of all the things I had to do. The medical appointments, this integration, all of these kinds of things that I had to do. It was more complicated, but I had a lot more rights in terms of I can apply to whatever job I wanted. I didn't have to be worried about, I don't want to say kicked out because was like, I guess a lot of expats were like, you're going kicked out.

Jen (26:40.856)

Yeah, I didn't have this like if I lost my job, I had 60 days to leave or 60 days to find a job. I could just live and I think that took a lot of the stress out. And then once I was here, a certain number of years, five, four years, think it was, because I applied for the nationality last year. So I had to be married to a French person for a certain number of years.

which I think is four years and I had to be here five years or something like that. So I was able to apply. Actually it came in July, so it took about a year in a couple of months and they forgot to tell me. So I actually got an email saying my French birth certificate is ready and the prefecture forgot to tell me I had been French for like three or four months and they forgot to tell me.

Did you feel different being French? To start wearing stripes and black and white and...

I think I was relieved when I saw that and my birth certificate came in, came in the, well, I guess email, they do email now, when that came in the mail, that was such a relief because all the documents, all the things that I've had to do, you know, I can't tell you how stressful it is to get a birth certificate with an apostle, you know, like that is just something that's, it seems like it's easy.

but like in Illinois, you can order the birth certificate online. You have to mail it into this other facility, the Capitol, which is like in the middle of nowhere. So either you have to physically go there, you have to have a family member do it for you or whatever. it takes, either you have to fly home to do it. And it's tough because my parents are quite, they're older, so that for them, that's really a lot to do. And so I think when I did, when I...

Jen (28:30.478)

When I had to do it for my French visa the second time coming from the UK, I had to hire a lawyer and the lawyer was like $400 to get me that birth certificate with just just a seal. It doesn't do anything. It doesn't look, you know, and it's a piece of paper. I look like I can make it on Microsoft Word. It doesn't do anything. I don't understand what like I'm going to make up my birth certificate. cost me, you know, the seal costs if you're there in Illinois, it costs like $2, but

Yeah, you've got to be there to get it because it takes like 10 working days to get it. And that's after you order the birth certificate. So not having to do those little things, not having to do that is such a relief. I don't have to walk around with my passport because now you need for the TGV trains and stuff, you have to have ID.

But like if I lose my resident card, you know, every year I have to pay a couple hundred euros for that. So if I lose it, I have to repay the fee, you know, to reprint it. And I don't want to carry that around. That's my whole life. And then like my passport, well, no one wants to walk around with their passport all the time. So now I have like a French ID card and I don't have to ever distress about that. It's not, didn't want to me sound like living abroad is like totally stressful, but it's just such a relief.

but handy.

James (29:58.094)

No, no, it definitely is. I think you some of large things of all things to get there, which is incredible. Is there anything else you needed to worry about before moving or should we go into this bit about being there?

I think as we kind of talked, we didn't really touch too much on accommodation. And I think that you kind of, that's something that you kind of worry about because you don't really know where you're going to live. But I think you kind of have to accept that unless your university or your job has something lined up, you're probably going to have to stay in a hotel or something or an Airbnb for a couple of weeks. At least the places I've lived, there's nobody that's going to rent to you an apartment without

a salary sheet without a resident card, without a visa, they're just not going to do that. And I think that you're kind of in limbo. And I think it's important to kind of clear that up, either with your job, with your university, sort of if you can, a lot of places, either they'll have HR or if you're at a university, there's like a group of expats or something that kind of know who to contact or some, just to kind of get your...

know, feet left with like agencies and things like that, that can kind of help you. But in a lot of times you need a guarantee or what is that? I forget what that's called. You know, those person that you need is a cosigner.

Yeah, so on to cover you need to pay.

Jen (31:26.878)

Exactly. So, you know, I think that's just another thing that you kind of have to, I didn't really say like, you know, I did touch on Switzerland, but like, yeah, when I moved to the UK, you know, had, my job was like, they sent me stuff like temporary apartments and it was like 2,500 a month. And I'm like, it's cheaper to stay in a hotel. Like, you know, and I said, am I the first foreigner that, and actually I was, I was the first outside non-EU citizen to work there.

And so they didn't know what to do with me. So that's why I kind of had said before, like, you really want to check. Are you going to be the only one? Because you're going to be their experiment. And then you're going to have to sort all that out yourself, you know? And so that's kind of, you either just going to have to accept you're going to have to stay in a hotel or just kind of, you know, see if there's like a community or somebody like that. Maybe there's somewhere you can kind of rent a room or something for even when you arrive, you know, just, just for a month or two.

And that can kind of relieve some stress. And then the only other thing would be the language. Yeah. If you think you're going to get by in one of these places without, you know, one of the places that maybe isn't your native language. I think some countries are a little more open than others, but like France, they kind of want you to speak, they kind of want you to speak French. At least be signed up for classes and make it look like you're making an effort.

Yeah, it wasn't so much an issue in Zurich, but people appreciate when you do make an effort. So you don't have to be fluent when you arrive, but at least be like, I'm taking classes online or just something that like you're planning on doing so you don't offend somebody who might be very attached to their culture and language. That is just something worth considering. It's not the end of the world, but I did find it helpful.

mean for me just the only thing I have to worry about is Unicorn Bombat and I can get blind friend. Maybe I'll wait until I'm on reserve.

Jen (33:32.164)

That's a good place to start. Yeah

Perfect. Well, I'm sure we'll get into a bit more about your life abroad in the next section.

James (33:46.58)

Hello, welcome to the podcast. love being there. So Jen, you've shared quite a lot about your journey so far in the first section, which is wonderful. Kind want to go into your first impressions. So when you first arrived in Zurich or France or the UK, what stood out to you? What stereotypes did you maybe come across or what didn't really stand out? You thought you might come across people drinking tea a lot in the UK or?

on doing in Switzerland. What was it like for you?

I think for Switzerland, it was, everything was so new and it was so unplanned that in terms of like culture shock and stuff like that, I didn't really, I almost didn't really have it. I was just like, I think when I arrived on like, this place is really clean and these people are really organized. I remember, you know, it was just like, there's a specific line for everything and it was just,

Everything was so efficient and I was just like, what's happening? know, it's just everything just kind of worked. I guess maybe I watched Heidi. Is that what it is? Is that Heidi, the little girl on the mountains with the father or the black and white film from like the thirties or something? I guess maybe that the Alps or something, I kind of had maybe that, but that was such an old movie that it didn't, I really didn't have that. just, my first impressions was like, yeah, this place is really clean. You know, like this is.

It looks like I can eat off the streets here. And so, you know, that's, when I moved to France, I was like, I think it started with the visa. I think it started when I had to wait for this woman to take a coffee break. And I was like, my God, is this what it is? Everything they say about the bureaucracy and particularly the strikes in Paris. I don't think that's universal to the rest of France. They do have strikes, but we have that kind of here in Stroudsburg and it's, it's just, it really like you feel it in Paris.

Jen (35:51.878)

And, like the, you know, that kind of, it was a lot slower and a lot less efficient, I think. And I think the first culture shock I had was the first day. So I had that, guess I was applying for the visa and I just thought, okay, maybe this woman just doesn't care and stuff. And I was like, you know, I guess not everyone is going to be like that. And, and it turns out everybody with the administration is like that. It is, it is exactly like that and they're going to take their time and they really don't.

Especially in Paris, not so much maybe in the smaller cities here like Strasbourg, but yeah, they're going to make it difficult for you and they're going to make extra steps and things like that. And that's how it's going to be. It was actually before I get into that store, actually one time I was renewing my visa and the woman, she was really nasty in front of me. She was really mean. I mean, she was just not, she hated her life and her job and I accepted it. And I was just trying, you know, just being quiet and accepting, you know.

She was going to find something wrong with my renewal process. The woman next, I could hear she was super nice. She was telling the guy who was missing a few things, don't worry about it. This girl who was doing my guy, she gets up. She goes over there and she goes, no, no, no, we're not accepting this. You have to make a new appointment. I was like, it's as bad as they'd say.

But in terms of like the, when I first arrived, that's why I kind of mentioned earlier about the language when I first served. So I had been talking to this administrative assistant at the university I was going to, or the institute I was going to work. We were speaking in English. I had assumed the woman had spoken English. I mean, why not just write to me in French and have me Google translate it? And I arrived, you my boss was kind of showing me around and introducing me to people. She said, this is, know, her name was Barbara something.

And this is who you've been speaking. I said, hello. It's very nice to meet you. And she looked at me. In France, we say bonjour. And then she turned back at her computer, and that was the end of it. And then I needed to get numbers for health insurance and stuff. Because you're not, that's one thing I did forget to mention earlier, is that when you arrive in France, you don't have

Jen (38:15.956)

access to the national healthcare system right away. You'd have to be a resident for three months first. so, you can still see a doctor, but you just have to, know, it's not going to be the cheap price that we get, that the residents get. It's going to be the full 25 euros or whatever it is. And she goes, your French isn't good. When your French is better, come back. I give you the numbers. And I was like, I think I have the right.

these numbers and I need this so I can apply for my health care. She, you know, that was it. Like that was it. They just weren't going to help me until, until I spoke French and I had a lot of colleagues and things, people I worked with, you know, it was a European grant. Remember I had come on a European grant and this was a pretty famous Institute. So I had assumed there'd be something, but nobody wanted to speak English.

People would just ignore me in the halls and stuff if I came up to ask a question. I don't think it was rude in any way. I think it's just they didn't feel confident in their English. And so me not knowing any French, we couldn't do like a half-half thing. And so they just didn't want to deal with it, which is fine. But from day one, that was really, really tough. And that's why I say the language, you don't have to be fluent, but definitely you want to show that you're making an effort. Because once I started doing that,

And I started taking classes. I started asking people like, hey, I learned this yesterday. Like, how do you use, how do you do this? Or what does this phrase mean? Or what about this? You know, it made things a lot easier. I think that was the huge, that was the biggest, that was kind of like, yeah, okay, there's the cultural shock of the bureaucracy, but also that language, like how important it was. I don't think I really realized that until...

until I had gotten there and then I was like, okay, yeah, this is going to be, I had to buckle down. It was like the first couple of months before I could speak, was going to work, I was getting to work at seven, but then I had to leave at four because I had courses. So had two days a week, I had a private tutor. It wasn't like some fancy language teacher, it was just somebody else who was giving courses, right? So was like $20 a session or whatever. And then I took...

Jen (40:38.05)

courses with Alliance Francaise the other three days a week and all the weekend I was doing homework. So I was determined because I wanted friends and stuff like that because it was, yeah, that culture shock was a lot.

Quite ironic that you were working at the Marie Curie Institute and they were not letting you have healthcare.

Oh, yeah, that was, oh no, I was on a Marie Curie fellowship, but I was working. Yeah, they didn't have, but still they wouldn't, she just wouldn't give me because you need like a code. Yeah, that is quite, yeah, that just like, I remember looking at her and I'm like, I think by law you have to do it, but it looks like you're not going to. So I guess I'll be back in a few months when I speak French, you know, and I was just like a clue.

whatever, you know, there's nothing you can do because they're holding the information that you need. So yeah, that's, I have a feeling. Yeah. I heard some stories about, you how the bonuses are issued and whatever. And she was a bit shady on some things, but you know, whatever it's, it is what it is. then, you know, you just go with it and that's what you just have to do. Not every place will be like that. Some might even be worse. I don't know, but that's kind of what it, you know, that's why I say like,

Power trip.

Jen (41:55.214)

if you can really make an effort for the language right away, I think it makes a big difference. And then I guess when I moved to the UK, it was a bit of a relief because I don't speak English. But the difference there was, think I was not, it wasn't necessarily a relief. was, you know, I didn't, by that point I was speaking French every day. So I was speaking, you know, I was, most of my conversations were in French, so it didn't.

By the time I had moved to the UK, this language barrier for me didn't exist in France. So was kind of nice. Like I went to the UK, but then I realized like, even though it's in English, the things aren't necessarily the same. So, and there was a lot of people from, not necessarily from London that I worked with, there was a lot of people that came from the North of England and things like that. where the phrases, the accents and all those kinds of things are different. So I didn't really have.

I had the stereotype, there's tea break instead of coffee break. And I was like, okay, they really do drink a lot of tea here. but I think it was also more like, I think I was expecting the language part to be very easy. Whereas in fact, it was actually, I was like, okay, so there are some phrases, there are some things I have to learn. There are some.

There's lot of idioms to learn in the UK.

And I worked with this one guy, I forget the phrase he said, but in the US when you say that, it usually means you're gonna have a conversation. But in the UK it doesn't mean that, it's of just like, it's kind of just a high, a passing high or something like that. I would, yeah, that's what it is. Yeah, that's what, I think that's what it is. And so I would stop and I would have a conversation and the guy is just walking down the hall and I'm like, huh, I guess it doesn't mean, I guess,

James (43:30.367)

You alright?

Jen (43:43.308)

You know, it doesn't mean that.

No one ever says no, it's how you write younger things to you and that is the extent of the conversation and no one's ever not alright.

Exactly. And so I just kind of, I just kind of thought there'd be a follow-up and it was, there was one particular guy who said it all the time and he had a very Northern accent. And I was just kind of like, I think we should have a conversation, but he's still walking. So I'm gonna, know, okay, I think this is what it is. And then I'm just, I'm going to accept it and move on. Even though, you know, it did took me a while to figure it out, but yeah. And people would laugh at me because it was just, you know.

Yeah. But it wasn't as obviously, it's not as difficult, but you do think it's like, it's English, but then there's stupid things like you kind of have to add like the U and color, you know, like when you write, you don't want to look like you don't want to look ridiculous. Right. So I'm looking up like, how did they spell that in the UK? How does it written in the UK?

I think it was the printing press made Americans remove letters because it's cheaper to produce.

Jen (44:49.004)

That was a problem for me because you want to sit in, And the last thing you want to do is stand out. And I was the only American at the place that I had worked, British. There's a few folks from the EU, Sweden, France, and stuff like that. But you want to fit in. And so you want to do the things like they're doing it. And so you do have to kind of learn that stuff. You didn't really think about it before, but you want to fit in. And then I realized I had...

When I started writing my family back in the U S or I post on social media, Facebook or something like that, you know, I'm using UK spellings and using UK phrases and the, you know, from the UK and my family is a little bit confused, but you just get such into the ha you know, you get, you just get into the habit of it because you want to fit it, right? You don't, even though it's the same base language, you don't want to look ridiculous when you're writing an email to, to coworkers, right? So.

I did find when I was living abroad, I was the kind of safeguard in the British English language because most people who are learning this as a second language learn American English because of media and social.

okay, yeah, okay.

Yeah, it's just American news is now overtaking everything because of Netflix and streaming and popular culture. So when I was in Sweden, I was like, no, you're saying you're wrong. It's not aluminum. It's not composite. It's composite. It's aluminum. It's not an elevator. It's not a sidewalk. It's a pavement. Just little things like that. was like, no, he's saying it wrong. He's spelling it wrong. It's not a trash can.

James (46:29.034)

And it became a regular thing and I was like, why is everyone not American English?

Yeah, you'd be surprised. yeah, you'd be, yeah, I guess I didn't even, I guess I didn't even think of it because I spent so much time trying to get rid of my American English while I was there because I was trying to fit in obviously with my accent, body language, facial expressions, things like that is very American, right? So you can never really get rid of it, but it's just something about you just kind of want to, you kind of want to fit in, right? And so you want to do that. And yeah, that was...

It was those little things that kind of I noticed like, yeah, don't know if I, maybe I'm not for culture shock and things like that. Maybe I'm not, I guess there are stereotypes, but I was just, I kind of just arrive and I just go with it. And then I just kind of like, okay, this is what we've got to do. I kind of observe and I'm like, okay, so I got to do this. I got to learn this language. Okay. This is how they write the word color. That's fine.

and I just do it, right? And then I just move on because I just, you know, I might think something's weird, but I'm like, well, I'm not from here. So I guess it's not, it's weird to me, but it's not weird to them. So I just move on, you

Yeah, completely. it's quite, I always found it quite fun to search for these little differences. So that was living abroad. was like, you do it this way. It's quite weird. Or like all doors in Sweden open outwards. I think it's for snow or something.

Jen (47:58.414)

I didn't

And that's quite awful for safety in a fire. It's one of the reasons you can always push a door away so you can get out rather than if there's a fire you're not pulling it towards you, you're running away with it. But they all, all the exterior doors open away from you essentially, which is quite interesting. And there's just things like that which you pick up when living abroad, like why does this exist? then usually if it's following a scientific process, then there's a reason.

good justification for it, which is quite interesting. And then also there's things which are completely stupid, which are also quite funny to find as well. that's, um, and you can see where someone in government has been very bored and want to make a very particular, you know, uh, regulation on, on something. Uh, going on to kind of tuning your life abroad, then obviously you mentioned that you and your, your now has been to lift away quite a lot of your relationships. So

What was that like? How did you deal with having to maintain a relationship whilst not being in the same place? Because it's quite a difficult thing to do and an enviable task, I imagine.

Yeah, that was so the first time we were I was in Zurich and he was in Tarragona, which is just south of Barcelona And so we were just over a year apart and so we would fly While we were we were postdocs at the time so we weren't you know didn't have real job well I don't see real jobs, but like you know you don't the salary in Spain for example doesn't really compare to a salary in Switzerland so flight tickets and you know

Jen (49:40.206)

Coming to Switzerland was really expensive for him and going to Spain was really cheap. know, that kind of stuff was that sometimes could be the financial part of something you have to take into consideration because you have to physically see each other. so, and back then like WhatsApp, all that stuff didn't really exist. We had Skype and so we would Skype every day. We would Skype at night. First time that we did that was really, really difficult. You kind of have to have confidence in the other person. You have to have confidence in yourself.

And you have to keep up communication all the time. And you have to, you know, you have to kind of take every minute you can together. You kind of have to not do like the little arguments and things like that. think that, you know, you can't get mad because of a text or something like that. Like you can't, you have to remember that like what's written down and kind of what the conversation you're having in person, you can't get irritated by these like little things and you kind of just.

I think you have to also let the other person have a life, like even though you have each other and you want to talk every day, that's definitely what we did and what we wanted to do. mean, sometimes we fall asleep with Skype on or something like that, but then it's also important to still kind of keep friends and have other friends and go out and do things.

So you don't get depressed thinking that you're away from, maybe in my case, it was my best friend. you know, that was difficult. I don't know if I have, it's gonna be hard. If you're gonna do it, it's gonna be hard. It's just, have to find the things that worked for you and the things that the two of you, you know, when I was in London and he was in Paris and we were commuting, it was a lot easier. You know, we knew we were gonna be together. We didn't know how it was gonna happen. We didn't know where we were gonna go. We knew we were just gonna be together. And so then it just became,

Well, have to make this work. And yeah, at that time, that second time, there was WhatsApp. There was all those things where you didn't have to worry about, you didn't have to worry about like international phone fees and things like that. was, we could text during the day or something like that, or send a message during the day if we needed to. And I think that second time that I moved, when I moved to the UK, I don't think...

Jen (52:01.83)

I don't think mentally I had ever really gave up France. I still had a lot of close friends that were here. He was still here, so I was still sort of attached to coming back as often as I could. I was never fully there, so the plan was for him to come to the UK. Of course, with Brexit and stuff, actually made it a lot. It made it very difficult for us because it was like two people on kind of, you know, not so secure visas. That was something that we weren't too keen on. We were hoping that...

you know, it's him, it would be easy for him to move over being an E.U. citizen and something like that, you know. Yeah, because we had been about almost four years apart. We had done, the first time it was a year and I was like, God, never again. And then the second time, the first year went by really easy. And then the second year I was kind of like, I want this to end, like I don't want to keep doing this, you know. And so someone had to make a choice. Someone had to move, right? It just got to the point.

And I said, I'm going to do it. You know, I came home from work one day. remember and I said, I sent him a message. said, I want to come back to France. And I said, I want to come back. I want my friends back. want, you know, because I still had a life there. Like I said, I never really gave it up. And so at one moment you do have to decide, right? Because it does, it's possible. If you keep up communication, you kind of, you work together and yeah, you have confidence in each other. But at one moment you have to, there has to be an end point. And I think that's.

If you just continue and there's no end in sight, it's probably not going to last.

No, it's more just that, yeah, you're right. You need to have that. The destination of being back together again is very important to have, especially if one or both of you move abroad. It's difficult to keep it going unless you know where it's going to come back to. Or at least one thing that my partner and I did was we just knew when we were next seeing each other. before...

James (53:55.854)

one that was with leave, we knew the next time. we'd be okay. It's three weeks away. It's a month away. We, we, we, we have that in our mind. It's not, but when we're going to see you again, it's always okay. I'll see you in three weeks or I'll see you in a month. Um, and we very lucky that there was good flights between Edinburgh and Gothenburg. And I imagine for you, the, the aura star is quite good.

Yeah, the EuroStar was a life, that was a game changer, yeah.

Yeah, and it's more relationship safer, isn't it? I suppose because it becomes so much easier and there's a lot of faff. And if you happen to live near Angel or somewhere or near King's Cross, it becomes quite an easy commute. Yeah, it's important for sure. And then you mentioned also about friends, because it's a very good point. You need to have the balance of working in relationships you've already got that you want to keep. And then while you're somewhere, you need to have a network around you to enjoy a place or to...

Exactly.

James (54:47.462)

to not get depressed or to not only focus on work. It's very important to have that balance and something a lot of people do struggle with for sure.

It's not easy. It's not easy to do. There's no secret recipe. You just have to try stuff and see. I did a lot of boxing when I was in the UK. I signed up for, I don't know, was part of this thing that rehabilitated ex-convicts. And so I do boxing lessons with them. And that was a lot of fun. I had so much fun. But little things like that, that you just find where you can meet people and stuff like that. That's kind of what...

That's what I do.

Jen (55:34.094)

It wasn't violent. didn't, they didn't really like, unless you wanted to do like sparring and stuff like that, that wasn't. Yeah, they did it. It was more just the training. It was more just like a workout thing, you know.

Okay, that's cool. Anything else you want to talk about whilst living aboard? Maybe, know food is quite an important thing and I guess going from the US to Europe and all the incredible food that exists in Europe and in France all the, I guess, stringent rules on food like bread has to only have three ingredients which is, from my experience of American bread, is completely different and it's amazing in France.

Yeah, that was the food culture. That food culture was really difficult for me in France, I would say. I don't think I had so much an issue in Switzerland and the UK. I don't think like this prioritizing meals and things like that that France has. you know, even my boss was going for like an hour, hour and a half lunch and stuff, you know, and they were really, I think that's probably where I experienced it the most. I guess the food culture in France, like.

And everything is kind of sharing. You know, there's a lot of sharing with people and things like that. There's a lot of, I guess that's true in, I guess that was true in Switzerland as well. I didn't have it so much at my job in the UK, but like bringing croissants or bringing, you know, when it's your birthday and things like that, all this kind of stuff. There's a lot around that. I guess, yeah, but the way you eat in France is so different from the US. Like just...

There's like multiple courses. You're expected to sit there and talk with people and interact. It's not just you. Like in the U.S. I was always eating on the go essentially. Like I mean in graduate school like I'd have my coffee and my bagel and my car driving to work. Like I never really sat down and took the time when I had lunch. I kind of just eat quickly and then go back or even eat while I was working and that was it. And that was definitely.

Jen (57:36.364)

That was definitely not how it is here. And it's definitely in Switzerland. It wasn't like that. It wasn't like that either. Like you were kind of expected to, unless you had like a lot of work or a reason for whatever, you were pretty much expected to eat with other people and then, you know, take an actual lunch break, which is something that, that doesn't really happen in the U S like kind of just eat on the go and things like that. It's not, I would say I'm a lot healthier because of it. Like I actually spend time preparing my lunch. spend time.

eating it and talking with people and things like that. And I'd say it's a lot. Yeah. I guess in terms of food, yeah, the food is a lot better. mean, yeah, like the bread, the all that kind of stuff, the anything. Yeah. The U.S. food is a bit, it's a bit processed compared to what you find here. So yeah, I would say that overall, yeah, that's just, that's just the taste is, the taste isn't the same. So that's not even, that's not even comparison. I mean, can't even.

What do you want me to say? It's just not the same. It's just not the same. I'm lucky that my mom is a really, really good cook. I think for certain things, I will say this. I don't have a lot of home, like this being terribly homesick, I know a lot of people get, but I will get it for American breakfast. Sorry, I don't like the UK breakfast. That is just said the... I will get it for my pancakes and my eggs and things like that. So like when I go home,

hard going home.

Jen (59:02.72)

And to my mom, it's like, we go out for like a proper brunch? Like just an American. I just want a stack of like 20 pancakes in front of me that I know that I can't finish. Yeah, good maple syrup. And I want like a big cup of coffee. Please don't serve me this little, even though I drink it now, you know, the espresso and stuff, just, just give me an American cup of coffee and give me my pancakes, give me my omelet.

Good maple syrup.

Jen (59:29.27)

I don't want there to be too much food that I cannot consume everything in front of me. So that's like the one thing that, yeah, going home, think it's a bit, yeah, my mom, we never really, my mom was always very kind of careful with the food and stuff like that. So I don't know if she's necessarily like the standard. We never really had like microwave meals or anything like that. Everything was the same with my grandmother, kind of homemade and stuff like that. So we never, I don't think I ever experienced like,

these Lunchables and these things that Americans eat, you know, this meat that's not really meat, like my mom really didn't allow us to eat that kind of stuff. that part is a little bit better, but yeah, that's... But I do miss, like, yeah, the tarts and the baguettes and stuff that's not quite the cheese, the ham and all that kind of stuff is not quite the same, yeah.

I guess you've got Thanksgiving coming up soon. Is that a big thing you miss as well or like the American holidays? yeah. Family gatherings or how it's depicted is very awesome.

So I actually, yeah, I actually do come from a very big family where we had Sunday dinner every Sunday. We had, know, Sunday dinner every Sunday together. And Thanksgiving is probably one of my, it's my favorite holiday. But living here, I never get those days off. So, you know, I could never go home Thanksgiving and Christmas. Of course I could, but I mean, those are the two most expensive times to fly to the U.S.

of the year. And a lot of times I was going and the weather was so bad, especially in the Chicagoland area, like I said, you couldn't really leave your house and do anything. so I would say I definitely miss Thanksgiving. There's parts of the American Thanksgiving and how we celebrated Christmas and things like that that I...

Jen (01:01:33.166)

that I definitely miss. think I've just kind of accepted this is where I live now and that's kind of what it is. I was able to celebrate Thanksgiving with my mom. I was home last year with my parents. My mom's quite sick, but I was able to celebrate with her, which was really, really nice. She a huge turkey and everything like that. And so I haven't done that in a long time. So I definitely miss it. I guess I learned not to think about it and I just know that I have to call.

home and say, you know, happy Thanksgiving. And I kind of just, that's just kind of what it is because there's only so many times I can fly to the U S so many days off that I can do, you know, per year. So I do what I can do. Oftentimes it's not Thanksgiving, you know, I, you know, sometimes I come during the spring or something like that. So we can do, you know, I can take like a full three weeks and we can do stuff together and I can actually spend time without the stress of the holidays. Cause

You know, with the Christmas, it is stressful, all those holidays, running around and doing all that kind of stuff. And I feel like a lot of times, the times that I have gone, I haven't really been able to spend time with family just because you're just rushing from place to place and everybody wants to see you. Whereas if I kind of go on an off period, I can really spend time with my mom and my, you know, my family and my cousins and stuff like that and take, take it a bit slower. So I guess that's, I guess not everybody does that. kind of just, I'm probably a bit of a weirdo. just kind of like.

Probably the better way doing it, isn't it? Because you haven't got the ancillary distractions around you, which you have during holidays. Yeah, I think, and in the summer as well, we've got increased costs. So if you did go, yeah, Easter perhaps is a good time to go for lot of things as well. But it all depends on...

Yeah, I looked at it and I'm like, it's snowing. The few times I've done, I've done Christmas, I've done things. I have gone, you know, at various times, but few times I've gone sometimes also the weather is so bad. Everybody is so stressed. And it's like, I love this holiday so much. I'm only here for a limited period, you know, just a short period of time. It's like, you know, I kind of sometimes tell my family, like, it's just better if I just come, I come at like spring where we can go outside, we can do stuff.

Jen (01:03:56.206)

We don't have all these distractions. It's a lot less expensive. you know, a lot of times then I said, why we go on vacation together somewhere in the US, go for a drive, take a road trip and do something together where we can actually spend time together instead of, you know, that's kind of my take on it. But I do miss the holidays. It's just something that I do miss. I do miss being able to take that time and spend that time with them.

Yeah, for sure. Is there anything else you want to touch upon about living abroad before we go into the final section?

James (01:04:31.054)

So welcome to the third section of podcast, which hasn't actually been titled yet. And I've been saying this for seven episodes now, but this is a review of your time, Jen. it's the first question I always ask my guests is, um, if you could go back to before you moved, uh, and maybe give yourself some advice or maybe not change anything. Cause it's probably a bit of a weird thing to say, change something, but maybe

advise your younger self to avoid something or do more of something. Does anything stand out to you as something you might share with yourself?

That's a tough question. I wrote some notes on that and I'm kind of thinking about it myself. I think now that I have the French nationality, I guess maybe, I don't know that's a goal of every expat, but when you do get that, everything kind of comes full circle and I look back and I'm like, I don't know if I would say I would do anything different because I think it was so spontaneous. The whole process was so...

you kind of just happened. think you just kind of have to be ready and willing to adapt. I think that's the thing that even if you find things frustrating or you don't like something or, you know, the language is frustrating or the bureaucracy is whatever, you know, or the times where you kind of feel like a foreigner, right? Like you stand out like a sore thumb no matter what you do.

I think it's just important to just give yourself a moment to adapt. And I think you have to be willing to adapt. I guess people already don't want to erase who I am, but you're probably going to lose a little bit of your identity. You're probably going to lose a little bit of yourself and you're going to change over time. And your family back home, your friends back home, they're going to notice it and they're going to see whether it's your accent, how you are as a person, maybe your ideas, your views and things like that.

Jen (01:06:33.582)

things are gonna change, think you just kind of have to accept it. And you kind of just, you're gonna have to go with it. And I think if you're against something and you're gonna, know, it's okay to disagree, but you also remember that you're kind of a guest in somebody else's country. So, you know, I was like, well, I wouldn't do it like that, but you know, that's kind of how they do it here. Like if they're gonna take a coffee break and let me, you know, make me wait for my stuff, then that's how it is. You just kind of, you have to accept it. You have to move on and you have to adapt.

I've spoken with some expats where it was just too much for them. was just, you know, they moved to France. They weren't necessarily ready for the higher taxes for the, you know, all this kind of stuff for the more complicated working contract and all this kind of stuff. And just one moment and they throw out the hands and they're just, you know, I'm not, can't do this anymore. It's not something that's going to happen overnight. I mean, the first year you're so excited, right? So you're super excited.

You're ready to go, there's all this new stuff, you wanna try everything, you wanna take weekend trips everywhere, but then like the second year, the third year, all of a sudden the real life kind of happens. And I think you have to wait for that to happen and give yourself time for that and be patient. I guess that's probably a very long-winded answer, but that's kind of what I've got.

marinate in being an expert.

Yeah, you do. I think that's quite accurate. Yeah.

James (01:07:59.15)

Looking back at the US then, obviously you lived abroad and lived in different countries. Have you experienced much reverse culture shock? I suppose maybe now is quite a prevalent time with the elections happening perhaps. But have you looked back at the US and going, I didn't see my country like that, but now having had an external lens, it's changed or is it?

that's tough because the politics are always, they're so different, right? It's just, it's stupid little things, right? It's like, I go shopping in France, in France, there's a grandest grocery store I'm looking at that's here that's quite tiny. And it's just like, you know, there's one person that can fit through that aisle. And then I go home to the US and I'm like, I step into a Walmart and I'm like, it has everything. And I remember the first time

It was a couple of years ago that I really it had been years since I been in Walmart, you know, I've come home, of course, but like never really Did any of the shopping I was kind of helping my mom she had gotten sick So I was really doing the daily life stuff again, and I remember just thinking to myself how overwhelmed I got by the Walmart and It is just like there was just too much stuff and I was like, why isn't this just a grocery store? But it's a pharmacy. It's this it's that it's a clothes shop and that I mean

It sounds so stupid. It's a one-stop shop that I just, you know, it's something that I just, I don't really have. I didn't really have living in Paris and you don't really have living here in Strasbourg. Of course there are places that do exist like that here, but not to such a grand extent. It just feels so different, you know, but it feels different going back. that's a, I just, you know, I remember my mom's like, you look really stressed. I'm like, yeah, because there's like,

chaos and like it's 20 minutes to cross the store. You know, it's like the aluminum foil is all the way over there and it's, you know, I'm just getting a banana and it's, you know, I gotta go on a hike to get it.

James (01:10:01.516)

that's how you buy things because you you go past all these things on sale and

I don't have to do that now. I walk five minutes. It was the same in every country. would be five minutes to the grocery store. In terms of politics, I'm a little hesitant to... The US has... They have kind of... It's like the elections and things like that. I think I realized that it's kind of... They have two parties, but they're very similar. And I find in other countries that there's really more of a spread of ideas. There's more of... There's not necessarily...

just two parties or they're not like, you know, in France as a general is probably definitely more left than the US overall. But there's really, you have like the extreme left and you have the extreme right, but they're really, they're different ideas and they're different things that I find like the US they don't, I'm just like, gosh, man. Yeah, there's differences, but there's only two and it's not really, you know.

Yeah, it's not, I feel like it's not what it is here. I don't feel like there's, there's like no variety, I guess. There's not, and some of the things I, kind of just like, I remember going home and it's, you know, all the kids, they've got their cell phones now. And my aunt was saying, they need the cell phones because they have like the shootings in the schools. And I said, well, why don't you just take away the guns then? You know, and then all of a sudden that was a new thing. And I had kind of forgotten that, yeah, this is a very important.

This is a very important thing that just doesn't, that's something I don't have to deal with here. And so those are kind of touching topics that I'm not giving my opinion. I'm not trying to say who I am for or against. It's just kind of things that I kind of noticed. It's just...

James (01:11:51.534)

But also it seems like you, I'm wrong, feels like the UK feels like it's going more towards the American way. Apart from when our leaders did lose the election, they admitted they lost the election. the only thing is that you have to, if you have an opinion on immigration, it's quite a hot topic at the UK. And if you have an opinion on that, that becomes your party. No matter what else they're with.

you aligned on that one topic and you have to agree with everything else in the manifesto. Whereas every topic is a spectrum, right? So you might be, I don't want fossil fuels, but I want to have better border control or I want to have different schools or I want to have gun control or I want to have different policing or government owned transport. And you can sit on the spectrum for each of those points and it doesn't necessarily mean you're

either Democratic or Republican or Labour or Conservative in the UK, you can be any of those things. And you pick based on where the party is positioning itself today. And I think we're losing that in the UK. from my lens of being in the US, feels like you pick the person, not the policy. And I could be wrong, but that's just how it's coming across. it's a bit, feels a bit broken.

I feel that the UK is in a similar situation where you pick the person not the policy, which is really upsetting.

Yeah, that's kind of how I felt. it's kind of like, these aren't ideas. kind of like, it's not like, mean, my goodness, if you take the far right in France and you take the far left in France, you have two completely different things. But if you look at Republicans and Democrats, yeah, there are some differences. But a lot of times it's not, I don't really feel like, I don't really feel like there's anything, yeah, there's anything.

Jen (01:13:53.558)

I don't know, it's something that's just kind of missing. I feel that like here, I kind of watch the news and I do feel it's, there is more of a discussion. I feel like it's an actual thoughtful debate and things like that. And I feel that in the U S it hasn't, it's lost that being able to sit down and just to have a conversation, even though the person next to you might not have the same views and

you know, being able to discuss, feel like that's something that kind of misses there. And I think people have become so focused on some of these things that is just, yeah, like there's just, there's certain hot topics, I feel like in the U S and I think that there's just, they're so minor compared to like the overall picture of things, you know, and, you know, and I always talk about how I love my healthcare here in, in France.

And I deal with my mom who's quite ill, she's cancer and things like that. And I just deal with her healthcare and I'm like, I've never spent so much money on healthcare. It's just like this, somebody who's sick, shouldn't be like this. The person who's suffering shouldn't have to suffer so much just to deal with things like that. So there's some things that it's just, I look back and I'm just like, why?

Of course, to change a system like that would cost an astronomical amount of money and you would have to convince people to pay higher taxes and things like that. just a different system. guess I think now I find the US to be very unforgiving, a very unforgiving place to live. think it's probably the thing I would say is that it is kind of, I feel it can be very cutthroat. And if you make a mistake,

That's it, right? If you have a loan from school, have health problems, you have something that just doesn't go your way. Like you can find yourself like thousands and thousands in debt. Whereas I feel like France is very forgiving. Like you have a death in the family, you have a baby, you have a family event, you have something happen. There's systems set up and there's things that you can apply for. The leaves of absences that will

Jen (01:16:18.414)

cover you, obviously you can't spend your whole life on a leave of absence, but there's like, not everyone's having a good day. And there's a moment where you can submit a leave of absence and you could be granted a couple of weeks just to take a break. Yeah, death, lost your parents or something like that, or your parents are sick. Yeah, you can take a break and you can just deal with it. Whereas I find the US is very, very unforgiving in that regard. I don't know if I've answered all your...

Yeah, so sorry to send you that rabbit hole there, which was probably a bit more personal for you and thank you for sharing that. But yeah, it's a tough place to be in. I would like to live in the US, but I think I would not stay in the US. would be cool for my career to do it for a few years and then move back to Europe because it feels like a place that's amazing if you're healthy and young, but once you...

I hear stories of people who can't retire because they lose healthcare if they retire and things like that. That's a bit to me quite scary. The NHS is an incredible thing in the UK, but I think we're losing that. It's not as it used to be when I was growing up. It feels like it's lost. Hopefully it will recover, but it's quite worrying. And travelling and experiencing other cultures and other ways of doing things.

and that you can see how experiments have worked, it's political, whether it's social, it's whatever, and you can...

live in a society and start to develop a global opinion on things. It's not necessarily neither right or wrong, it's what's right for you.

Jen (01:18:03.618)

You know, if you say it, a lot of times I say, I'll say, I really love living in France. And I say, you think the U S is bad or you don't like, not really. It's just different. It's not, you know, there's certain things here that are a lot better than those certain things in the U S that I, that I think are better. And it's just, you know, whatever, you know, it's just, it's not necessarily, it's just a different, it's just different. And that's all you, yeah.

It's like anything. That's why life's amazing because we all have our own idea of what we want to live in and how we want it to work. that's why I guess movement of being able to move and live in a society you want to live in should be possible. I guess we're restricted now. So there's people who don't want to live in America who would like to live in Europe. But because of visas they can't and vice versa. Which, if you had people who want to live in the country they're living in

and the ones who want to leave, they could just swap. I think every country would be happier. But it's a shame because you can't control where you're born. It's the one thing that's impossible to control. Your kind of your origin.

Yeah, it's kind of just by, it's just luck, right? Yeah.

Pure luck. Anyway, I was wondering if you want to share about your travel blog and where people can find your amazing work and yeah, where they can see you.

Jen (01:19:31.352)

So I run a travel blog called Dabbling in Jetlag. So it started out as like a diary of whatever, and then now it's gotten more serious. So in the beginning, I kind of covered all of my travels because I have traveled. I've traveled in the Middle East, Southeast Asia, South America, all that kind of stuff. now it's about life and travel in France. So because I live here.

And there's just so much to do outside my back door, you know, and I just kind of want to share that and I'm happy to share my experiences, you know, here. So you can kind of find, have, most active on Facebook. I actually polled all my subscribers and they didn't really seem to like Instagram or anything like that. Everyone liked Facebook. So I'm on Facebook. I have my Facebook page and then I just.

So I do travel a lot and I have traveled a lot in France. So there's a lot of different cities and regions and things on the website, on my website. But I also have, because I live in Alsace, this region here in Eastern France where I live in Strasbourg, which is within Alsace. I have a Facebook group called Alsace Travel Tips. So I have a lot of people that's kind of exponentially over the last few months. So it's a small region.

It's known for its vineyards, these colorful half-timbered houses and things like that. And it's the wine roots and stuff like that. So there's a lot of history here because it's been a part of Germany and stuff. So I've been kind of growing that as well. And there's a of people who joined and who have joined. And I've come here now, I've contributed to the group and things like that. yeah, no, it's really, I have a lot of fun with it.

It's kind of strange coming from being an organic chemist to now doing like travel writing and photography and things like that, but I'm a lot happier doing it. And it's really something that I love to do. And I like sharing my experiences living in France and then traveling around the country, you know, and now that I'm a French citizen. it's kind of, everything has kind of come full circle. Probably should have came up with a different name for the blog, but there you go. This is one of those.

James (01:21:47.814)

It's an incredible name and you can always rebrand it into the world.

Yeah, that's the thing. That's the thing is it just, yeah, that's what happened. It started out as like a, you know, it started out as sort of a general thing and then it just narrowed it down to France because people like, at least again what I notice, people kind of like when someone lives there, you know, and that's, know, you just haven't been to a place one time or something like that, you know. I go to these places multiple times. I take the train, I'm current and I'm...

know, current on the travel and whatever. So yeah, I like it it's fun for me to do so.

Yeah, for sure. I'll be sure to be there be a link for that below. If you're watching this on YouTube or wherever you'll be able to find where you can find Jen and experiences. And that's why I thank you for your time on this Sunday afternoon to share your story and your life abroad. And yeah, hopefully you have enjoyed the podcast and you have enjoyed listening to our conversation. Please do go and like, share and subscribe and all that fun stuff. And yeah.

Hopefully we'll see you next time for the expert pod.