E072- robin

James Doran (00:06.19)

So hello and welcome to the Expat Pod. My name is James, your host and today I'm joined by Robin. And Robin, we met via Facebook, I think, where I put a question out to a group we were both in and you responded saying you'd love to be a guest. So thank you first of all for doing that. And if you could please share where you're from, where you've lived and what you do. Yeah. So I'm originally from, well, I'm Robin. I'm originally from Italy, but I've lived

around the world. Started off pretty young actually. I've lived in Germany as well, in Holland, in England, Ireland, Canada, and the US and Austria. And now I'm in Canada. By the way, I went from expat to full immigrant. Got a kind of an upgrade there. And then I am a mentor, a speaker, and an educator for people who want to travel more.

travel full time and earn income online. Amazing. Well, I'm sure we'll unpack your journeys in the main podcast.

James Doran (01:16.462)

So Robyn was actually in one of the podcasts all about getting there. So Robyn, essentially this is where, kind of want to understand all the things you needed to do before you left. before we do that, I want to know your why. So what was the reason for wanting to move and live abroad? What was the kind of desire you had to live in all these amazing places? I think it started off when I was a kid. I always remember

I was an avid reader when I was a kid. Definitely lost a bit of that skill as I grew up and as I went to uni and stuff. I've always been into this adventure kind of books. And I remember two particular like series of books that I was reading as a kid. One was this girl and her aunt and they were exploring Italy and like they were going through every region and like having adventures around.

which obviously was, you know, it felt very close and very feasible to me because I was living in Italy. And another one was, there's two siblings and they were like doing, had a tree house that was bringing them on these adventures across times and space and whatever. And it was super cool. And so I always had this kind of like adventure seeking feeling in me. And like it, I think by the fact that I've been, you know, I moved a lot when I was younger with my family. And I think that just,

fueled something that I already kind of had. When I was 12 years old, we moved to Germany with my family. And obviously that was a crazy culture shock, language shock, everything. I didn't speak anything but Italian. It was almost, I've always loved languages. So was, I was dreaming. I was like 10 years old or something. So was like just dreaming of, know, speaking English. I was like bubbling things that I thought sounded like English, by the way. Reading and trying to really like...

learn a new language, because I found it fascinating to be able to speak to others. so I think though, that was a very pivoting chapter for my life because it was my first international experience having to deal with, you know, people from different countries, mostly Europe, but also a couple that were outside of Europe. So obviously it was like a very, very different, and it kind of changed me and made me for sure miss my country. So like, I was really looking forward. I was like, no, I want to go back to Italy. I missed.

James Doran (03:37.89)

you know, certain things about Italy and the Italian lifestyle. But then when I went back to Italy and finished high school there, I knew that I had to get back out. I was missing the international lifestyle. I was missing speaking different languages. And so when I was 18, I left Italy and I haven't actually lived there full time again ever since. So it's been a while that I've been abroad.

And it's been fantastic. And I've done a lot of different, I call it like travel lifestyles. So I was, you know, a student abroad at first and I was an expert for a little bit because I was doing like internships and staying for a little bit in different countries, working holidays and so on. And I say, know, like I, you know, backpacking, Nomad, all these different ways to travel and explore the world. And then ended up in Canada about four years ago now, more permanently. And

Yeah, very happy. Even moved here. So I guess for me, the new challenge in my own journey is settling down and calming down a bit. Because it's something different after you've been moving and starting over for 14 years, right? But I think that's kind of an organic part of the journey where you kind of like start to also be like, okay, like I want to have a base and travel from there. But yeah, that's how it all started. It kind of just organically became.

my life. That's incredible. Where did you go when you were 18 and where did you move to? Which country did you study in? Or did you go to when you left Italy? It was Holland. Yeah, I studied psychology in Holland. And then between my bachelor and master, I did like one year gap year. And during the gap year, I moved a lot. It was mostly Europe, but I moved a lot around Europe. Half working, half just traveling. So really taking my time before.

jumping into my next academic, I guess, endeavor. And then within my master, I did half of my master, it was a one-year master, I did half of that in California, in the US. And after that, was like, I want to be living outside of Europe because I had lived at that point in time. I had lived a lot in different parts of Europe, like North, Center, South, right? And there was something after living in California, was like, wow, like there's, it's so...

James Doran (06:00.206)

in a way also convenient to be here because then I can like travel to Latin America more easily, to Asia more easily. And so I think that's what brought me to eventually, you know, move on this other side of the pond, let's say. then when you were applying for your kind of education, then what drew you to the Netherlands or Holland? What was the, did you look at other schools in other parts of Europe? Cause I know, obviously you can move.

quite freely between education and guess the price doesn't matter too much within mainland Europe. If go to the UK it's a bit more expensive but for that's a Holland it's probably quite similar price. I'm assuming you had a lot of choice within mainland Europe of what you'd like to study and what you'd like to study. So was the other universities or countries which were high on your list? Yeah, well no I definitely applied for different ones so it's kind of funny how you know life plans out.

for you in a way, but I applied for UK universities and then the one in Holland and then one in Valencia, because it was like a bilingual psychology social science program. And I actually got accepted in the ones in the UK as well. But after going to the intro week in the one in Holland, I just loved it. It was so international and it was just such a good vibe. And it wasn't just

about the money per se, where it's like, you know, like at the time, I think I was still in time to get a slightly lower price for the UK universities. But it was just a feeling. And then even kind of how it didn't work out, because my first choice was Valencia, because I was like, yeah, of course I'm going to Spain. I probably would have not re-bratwaded, but that's, I was, you know, really wanting to go to Spain.

But it didn't work out with the documents. So it was really like, got to the point where it was in between Holland and Spain. But there was like a delay or I had to send an extra set of documents. And then that's why I kind of was like, okay, whatever. I'll go to the intro week, see how it goes. See? And during the intro week, I found a house and then I met these people. And then it just like clicked. And I was like, I need to go here. And then you go into your also gut feeling. And it worked out. It was a great.

James Doran (08:17.282)

It was a great place, I met great people and it's one of the, well, to go back to your first question, how I chose, it wasn't just country. Obviously Spain was also for the country. I love Spain and the weather and its similar lifestyle to Italy, but it was also about the ranking of the university. So like I wanted to go to specific courses within social sciences and psychology more specifically. And so I kind of looked at universities that had, you know,

well ranked courses around what I wanted to study for, you know, research and all this kind of like educational aspects of it. cities you moved to sorry in the Netherlands was it Amsterdam or Rotterdam or the Aigle? Unknown one called Groningen which is like super north. So I did my bachelor there and my master's. Yeah. Yeah, because I had a job interview at a place called Belk, which is the other side of the bay, which is not far from Zwolle.

And I nearly moved to Zwolle at some point in my life before Brexit. But alas, I chose a different company. but I know that part because yeah, it's the west and north part of the Netherlands. seems to go to, but they go further east and it's a bit different. It's different. North of Holland is pretty different from the south, even though it's relatively small country. And then so when you moved from the Netherlands,

You moved, suppose your next move again, In Netherlands, was, sorry, I lived in the US for a little bit. And then I went back to Italy to just save money for like a few months and get money to go to Canada. So Canada was kind of my next one there, but it was on a working holiday. And then I wanted to stay, but my visa expired, which, you know, the feeling, cause we were chatting about it earlier, right? Sometimes I think that's kind of like,

The harder part or the sad part for people who want to keep on moving, like there is a certain point where you can do everything that is in your power to like move or stay in a country. But then you get to bureaucracy and, you know, limitations that are outside of anything you can do, such as what passport you have, such as...

James Doran (10:35.97)

Having, you know, only, for example, for Canada as Italian, you only have one year working visa. After that, you either get sponsored or you can't stay, right? So it gets complicated at some point, but it kind of worked out in the way that I went back to Europe. I lived in Ireland for a little bit. And then I, because of my work experience in Ireland, I got sponsored in to come back to Canada with a job and then COVID hit.

And I've been here ever since. So when you moved into Canada the first time, was the process like for that? Was it quite easy to apply for the working holiday visa? was it long winded? What was the timeline for going, want to move to Canada to be on a plane? it a couple of months, couple of weeks? So it's been a while, so I can't fully remember the exact amount of time. But I have to say, generally, as

European at least with an European Union passport or a Commonwealth passport. It is quite fast. So everything was online. It was, you know, like a lot of visas. It's about getting criminal check down and getting, you know, like certain documentations over. So it was all like an online portal. And I remember that I don't know the exact amount of weeks, but I

don't think it was longer than a month. It was pretty fast. And it was a working holiday, they're a bit more, like at last there's something very wrong with the application that they need to hold it. With the working holiday, at least at the time, they were definitely a bit more easygoing. This was before COVID. And I actually had, know, because my plan was actually to do Canada, then go to Australia. Never made it to Australia, but you know, life happens. But...

That was, it was similar. So the working holiday process was similar to the Canadian process. So I kind of like did them like simultaneously. Um, and yeah, the main thing is age, right? Uh, for example, now I wouldn't be able to apply anymore. Um, I think it's about 30 years old for Australia. And I want to say 35, depending on the country, 30 or 35, depending on the country of your passport for Canada. think it's 35 from the UK. Uh, cause my friend, he, he and his

James Doran (12:55.214)

girlfriend, they road trip from the UK to New Zealand and it was 35. So they had to get there before they turned 35 when they did, but it was pretty close. Okay. So I still do it in New Zealand. yeah, I think like a working haunted of Isis in general are such a great foot in the door in a country. It's, know, obviously you can also be limited depending on the like you have for a job, right? There's

Serial limitations, like let's say more full-time permanent positions. They may frown upon having a working visa just because they know that you may have to leave in six, 12 months time. But if you just want to test out a country, being able to legally work in the country, it's a great way. And then that way you can also network, like I think.

people I met and so on, in Canada through that, these are also, you know, still my friends and that network also helped me then find something, you know, to go back to as well. So I think whenever you move first to a country, there's always a bit of that first month's sacrifice. I mean, when I first moved to Canada, I was doing like three jobs, kitchen assistant, working in a pub as a waitress and then like working or helping out.

for seasonal events. So, you know, like you do things like that and then that will get you, you know, from there, then it moved into more like supervisor positions. So it starts to get you into different positions because you start to know people and you start to network and things like that. So I think it's very much worth it. I'm a big advocate for working holiday visas for people who want to test a bit of work and travel and...

maybe fall in love with a new country and then you have to figure out how to stay there permanently. then so on that topic then when you were living in Ireland, were you always looking to go back to Canada? Was that your kind of destination? Yeah, yeah, like I had it, like I knew Ireland was only temporary. I wanted to go back to Canada, to go back to this side of, you know, of the ocean.

James Doran (15:13.518)

It was probably the first time in my life that when I had to leave Canada that I had to leave and it wasn't my choice. Cause otherwise I was always lucky enough, especially in Europe, the mobility is very easy, right? Like you just need an European Union passport to, you know, to move. It's not really like, Oh my God, my visa expired kind of situation. Um, yeah, exactly. Yeah. I'm sorry. Sorry. European Union passport.

I mean, mine's still a EU passport. It is still 2028. And I've got a European work. My driver's license is still European. Maybe you can use that. Maybe you can trick the system. I don't need a visa. Yeah, sorry. So besides me, of course, for everybody else in Europe, as part of European Union, it's a very different thing. And you don't realize how lucky you are. You do, but you're also done fully.

how lucky you are that that's the case, that you can live in a totally different country with a totally different culture, history and language and not have to worry as much about the bureaucracy if you're from Europe. And so I think for me, obviously California was the other one. So California and Canada really showed you how it differs the moment you want to be an immigrant as well, like full on immigrant, like so more permanently in the country, working and staying permanently in the country. And you realize

what you really can't control. And it's very upsetting at first, because you're like, it's not your choice. You're like, you've always used to, or at least I was always used to moving because I wanted to move. I chose Canada, I chose Holland, like all these places, I kind of chose to go there because I was like, yeah, let's go, let's see what happens. And not having that in your control feels very different. was, yeah, it took a while. It took a while to get over it for sure.

It all worked out and I guess this is kind of what you learn with moving around a lot and traveling. kind of like, you know, you figure it out at the end, it works out one way or the other, I guess. And before you moved in these places, have you always had accommodation planned or I guess places to go or be in? it hostels or B &Bs for the start whilst you're finding your feet? What was that kind of process like from being so far away from your destination?

James Doran (17:35.758)

Accommodation wise, it really depended on what I had. So I was lucky a couple of times. for example, California, I had something because I was going to uni. through that, I found a kind of website where I could try to find a room and then I found a room before going. So it kind of worked out really well. Similar for Holland, for example, it was during the intro week, just found somebody say, hey, I have this room. And then from there, was like temporary. It was just like two months.

kind of like sublies. And then it gave me two months to find something, you know, there's a lot of websites. I really like suggest, you know, the listeners to really like look up what kind of websites they have in that country. Every country has a bit of a different one where you can find. So for example, it's, still, I still remember it. It won, I don't even know if it exists anymore in Holland, cause it's been a while, but there was one called Comornet, right?

Something like that is one that I use for Germany. So there's different websites that you can use. And at the time, and I think it's something that works still, is also Facebook groups and Facebook advertisement, like people posting in their room on Facebook. And if not, I always suggest, and this is something I suggest people even if they're traveling, they have a bit more months, they're on the road for a bit longer, or they're staying in a place a bit longer.

is to find something temporary at first so that you can really realize, okay, this is the area want to be, this is like a good place or not. And then kind of go from there and not just like necessarily, you know, go and commit to 12 months lease without really knowing even if the place is actually in a good spot, right? Or if you like the room or if you like, you know, who you live with if you're sharing a house. But yeah, for Canada, I was in a hostel at first and then moved in.

Again, it's through people in the hostel, found a room and then that gave me some time to then, you know, go and have a viewing for another room. So it really depends. I think in general, like you just have to be very proactive. And for me, personal experience, it worked always really well to have something short-term at first, figure it out. And then if anything, commit to something for longer term, if you know that you're staying.

James Doran (19:58.862)

for like 12 months, then you can find something for 12 months. Completely, yeah. No, that's a very good bit of advice for the short term. You said that completely. I once lived in a place called Kensington in Liverpool. I thought it was very nice part of Liverpool. It wasn't, because Kensington in London is very nice. Very good. It doesn't translate. And sometimes the internet doesn't help, Yeah. So you need to make sure you, yeah, as you said, try and get short term or...

Facebook groups are really good as well for getting advice on places to live. Is there anything else you needed to do before you kind of moved or should we go into section two? The only other thing I would suggest is, I mean, besides what we discussed, which is obviously visa, that's a big part, right, accommodation, is also kind of looking at, you know, the lifestyle, doing a bit of a research about whether the country or the city.

Just to get an idea of it, what to expect, right? Talking to people who are there so that when you're there, especially if it's kind of new to you, if it's like kind of the first time you do this, or if you have any sort of like more fears around doing the move, it really helps to talk to other people, to inform yourself because automatically you will feel it's a safer choice when you have more information around it and you...

have a bit less of unknown in you. So that's the only other thing I would suggest to do if you have a bit more, you know, concerns about moving. I guess it's a great, great bit of advice for sure. Yeah. Do your research or do your own research. Don't always just believe everything people say and things change over time as well, which is also why it's probably very important to stay up to date with current affairs, perhaps in your new home or potential new home.

James Doran (21:56.238)

So welcome to the second part of the podcast all about being there. So Robin, this is essentially your first impressions initially. So when you first moved maybe from Italy to Germany, perhaps when you were young, what was that like? How did you find the difference? Obviously different language, very different cuisine, different weather.

a lot of different things in Germany. I'm which part of Germany did you move to? didn't think I asked you that question. Frankfurt, which is probably also a very specific city. think, know, well, also considering the age, right, I was 12 years old. I did not speak the language. And I think that's why I always like, you know, feel and trying to make

people feel involved or included when they are not in an environment, even with English, if somebody is not like native speaker English, I always try to like make sure they feel included. Because not knowing the language makes things much harder because it's harder to communicate with people, it's harder to make friends, it's harder to feel integrated overall. Language is such a big part and that's why the time and even...

My business started off as a tutoring for Spanish and Italian. It's a huge power. It's not just like, I can get jobs because of this language or I can live somewhere else, but it's also from, you know, experience of your travels, experience of like living abroad changes a lot if you know the local language. For me, the biggest, and I want to be specific, like it's Frankfurt specifically. I think Frankfurt is a bit different. Like I've now known...

You know, I've been around German quite a lot, lived also in other cities later on in life, which were a completely different experience than what I'm about to say. But I think the not knowing the language and Frankfurt specifically was kind of what made my culture shock stronger. I had no idea what people were saying. I thought everything sounded particularly aggressive because I didn't understand. And that's kind of how funny it is. Like how I cannot.

James Doran (24:08.044)

feel that anymore because I speak German now and so I understand what they're saying. And so I don't have that first reaction. But as a 12 year old, even hearing about, show your ticket or something on the tube, as you say, on the metro and stuff, even that sounded intense. Because I had no idea what they actually meant. And then I would see people giving tickets and I was like, he's the, or I would see the hat. And then I was like, OK, it's just the ticket.

you know, guy, but I struggled, I struggled a lot with integrating. I was in an international school, so actually I was learning English, which is funny. I learned English in Germany because it was the second language. I had like subjects in English, so that was my priority. And I actually started understanding German pretty fast, but then I couldn't answer, right? And I couldn't answer in English either because I was still learning it.

And so I think that was probably the toughest part of it. And all my first months, I spent it with people who spoke Italian. And so it makes integration much harder because then I'm not integrating with anybody else, but whoever speaks Italian and family, obviously that was fine. what I will always remember though is the people and specifically like two of the...

girlfriends of mine from that period of time who were so kind to me and were literally trying anything to try to talk to me. Hands, literally anything, almost drawing. And learning random Italian words to be able to talk to me because I guess they felt bad because they could see I was trying to, but I couldn't connect, I couldn't communicate. And so we...

without communication, you can't connect to people. And that was such a hard, hard time the first month, but also pretty stubborn and love languages really helped. Because then I would say like within, it probably like expedited my learning English and having or wanting, having this need to connect with people, communicate to people was making me really like, need.

James Doran (26:33.432)

to learn. And so I was taking every very embarrassing interaction at first, because I felt it's frustrating when you learn a new language and you can't express yourself and you have all this thing in your head and nothing comes out to you about, right? It's like you're like this whole different person, right? I think Sofia Vergara, I just saw a video where she says it's like, you know how smart I am in Spanish? And it's funny, but it's also so true.

In a way, like part of your personality and your person is connected to that language and the ability you have to express yourself in that language. yeah, like the need to communicate the love for languages, the fact that I had no choice, really expedited it. And I would say that probably by, you know, month two, I wouldn't say my English was great, but I could at least communicate something. And I was learning so many words because I decided, you know what, it feels awful that I...

can barely put a sentence together. It feels embarrassing. You're also 12. You're going through your whole teenage problems. This was just additional to just being a normal teenager. then I started. And because of putting myself out there and trying and be like this, and then they're like earring, and you're like, okay, earring. And then you have to remember vocabulary and stuff like that. And it worked. And then one moment, as soon as I started speaking,

better English and then speaking a bit more German and at least understanding everything in German. That was a pivoting moment for me in how I felt and, you know, making friends and all these things. So definitely the first year was hard and probably the first six months were the hardest. But you learn a lot. And I think that made me very also empathic and sensitive to

people who are in similar situations where they don't know what's going on, they don't speak the language. feel like mama bear when I see that happening because it's not nice. the people who were kind to me when I wasn't able to communicate, want to be that person to other people. And so that's kind of my biggest learning from that. Did that then translate when you moved to the Netherlands? So see Dutch and...

James Doran (28:50.306)

Deutsch, very similar, or Nidlands is probably the correct term for the language, it? It's not even touched. But they're not too dissimilar, because having tried to learn both, they're very similar languages, like Dankerville and Dankert. You can intertwine them quite nicely. But was that annoying for you, or did it help you a lot when you were maybe trying to learn Dutch? Because it was a similar sentence structure.

Maybe add more vowels perhaps, but did you end up using like a mix between the two languages or were you was able to help you learn the Dutch?

so I definitely helped. And I think to be honest, after that experience when I was 12 years old, learning English and German on top of it. After that, again, I love the languages already and going through that really helped me learning others. So then I learned Spanish. And when I went to Holland, first of all, they all speak English and they're like, my God. Like if you try to like, God, your accent is so cute. And you're like, I want to speak Dutch. Like I don't want to.

or sound cute, I want to speak properly. So I definitely took a course because I, again, I believe in learning the language of the place, especially if you live in the place. So I would say it's very, very basic conversation. So I don't really count it as a language. I fully speak. But no, I think because of that experience, like learning any other language became easier. I know how I work. I know how I learn.

languages and knowing Latin languages such as Spanish and Italian, then a very different language such as German and then English on the other side, which is your lifeboat. If you ever need, you can always try some English and see if that one works. So no, it definitely shaped and it definitely opened so many doors for me just going through that challenge.

James Doran (30:53.962)

It's a whole new world that opens up and not just from like being able to learn more easily. feel like after you learn a couple of language, like your own language and a second language, you are a bit more prone to like learn faster other languages. If you like to learn languages, you don't have to. I think two is enough usually. But yeah, I think it was, it was like, I call it like a trampoline in that sense for my, you know, future life.

And then kind of going throughout the years, but obviously you've worked, how have you found kind of making friends in new places? Maybe not when you've gone to university, because it seems obviously quite easy. You've kind of thrown into a melting pot with other students who are all enjoying a new place, but maybe more as an adult by yourself. Have you found it difficult to kind of make friends initially, or have you found ways in which you've been able to do that?

Yeah, I agree. Like it's definitely as you age and also as you start like more the working, you know, life, it can become definitely harder than when you're like at university and everybody wants to be friends and everybody wants to, you know, is on the same boat. Things that have helped me and I, you know, I would, you know, suggest people is, well, first of all is staying in houses does help at first. I think for at least an introduction to the city.

and getting to know places and getting to know first people, that helps. You do get to a point where if you want to stay more permanently, that's hard. I think in Canada was lucky because there were more people who were also staying for a year or were also staying more long-term and still have friends who are still here, permanently also trying to move ahead in this immigration ladder we're on.

But we all met at the hostel, right? So that was just luck, to be honest. But I think hostels can be a great intro, and that's also a way to maybe find a couple of people who are trying to do a similar journey as you. Another one is, sometimes, it depends who you work for, but if you move for work, hopefully, you get some nice colleagues, and you can bond with them, and they can be a foot in the door to like...

James Doran (33:15.192)

than meeting other people and so on. So it's not always necessarily bad. I think though, of course, if you are fully remote and you live in a country, that's different. And I think this is something that may be more like as digital nomad, right? Or as a full-time remote worker, because maybe you already had a job and you just moved country, not necessarily for a job, just for a lifestyle perspective. Then in general, you always have to be more proactive, right? You are the new kid in town.

A lot of the effort goes on you and you cannot be afraid to make first moves and put a bit of effort into it at the beginning because, it pays off. If you're a full-time remote worker in a new country, is nowadays, I would say, it's almost easier than back in the time when I was moving around at first. There's so many apps, there's so many associations, there's so many groups.

There's co-working spaces that have events. There's like even for nomads, there's a lot of like events around the world for specifically nomads who want to connect because we're humans. We need those connections. We need that feeling of belonging. so as an expat, as a nomad, like this is something that people want. And so luckily now there's a lot of...

Yeah, associations and places and technology offers a bit more options around it. So again, it goes speed with the research we were mentioning before. It also goes into, okay, what kind of groups can you join and what kind of app can you join? Right. Who can you reach out? Another thing that I did sometimes was a meetup, like the website and like can see apps with strangers. It doesn't always like go.

perfectly, but at least you try it and then like maybe from there you get a certain information that will help you. So I would say in general, like you need to be very open-minded. You need to be ready to make the first move. And yeah, kind of like test yourself and test the place you're in and leave that open-mindedness to also be spontaneous about things and at first be like...

James Doran (35:30.432)

Okay, sure. Like try things. think like saying no or being like, no, no, I can't do it or I'm not going to go to this event. You just never know what's on the other side of the door. And at least you'll, you know, if it doesn't go according to plan, at least it's how you tried. And I feel there's always a small win at least. There's always maybe that one person that told you something specific that whether it made you feel better or is information you can use to integrate more in the country. They can be, yeah, I think it's very good advice. Very good advice.

there's more than one way to find friends or find people and meet up. I used a lot on Facebook groups and they were great for different reasons. One was finding where to watch rugby in Sweden, it's not a very popular sport anywhere else other than Commonwealth nations perhaps. So was quite interesting to find a pub which had that on but also meet up was really good for going on a Tuesday night with a bunch of internationals to a bar and they would do that every week and you just meet random people from all over the world but you

meet people in similar shoes to you where they don't know anyone or were once in that stage. They might have been living there for three years and kept going because it was a fun place to be. That helped me quite a lot, especially when it was the winter months and the Southern Europeans or people who aren't very from the North might want to still socialize. this is quite a good thing to have done. Kind of going forward into, I guess, like

being Italian food is very important. How's that been living abroad? Obviously you moved quite young, so maybe you haven't got this in affinity, but maybe at home you had the amazing cooking, I'm not too sure. But since your travels, how have you found that? Do you miss home food or do you see all these incredible memes or videos of Italians reacting to people cutting spaghetti or using ketchup?

Yes. I mean, there's still some things that I cannot. I would say I'm an open-minded Italian for, know, I think, you know, we do have really amazing food. I'm a big fan of Mediterranean food in general. I love the Mediterranean. Like that is my habitat. And it's kind of funny because I've lived in a lot of different countries and I'm happy to call a lot of these home or like second homes, right? Because every country held a certain chapter of my life and it was great. I love.

James Doran (37:55.2)

Ireland, I love Canada, right? For different reasons. From a food perspective, there's two things or two sides of the coins in my experience. So, well, in Germany, I still had my mom cooking and she makes really good food. I was like introduced and I wasn't like super wild, you know, shocked. I think what I learned by living abroad from a cuisine standpoint and also talking to people. So one thing I did during university, was

part of the integration committee of Erasmus Student Network, ESM. And so part of what I did was also literally cooking for 40 people. And it was always like a different nationality. So you had like Mexican dinner and then you had Dutch and then you had Italian. So it was amazing to see like people like coming in and trying different cuisine. And so one thing that now I find kind of funny when I go back to Italy is Italy, like Italian supermarkets are very Italian.

There are certain things that I'm used to, especially coming from North America and you have everything, right? And you have hummus and you have pre-made whatever, you have sushi sometimes. You don't get that in the majority of the supermarket unless, I don't know about the bigger ones, but the smaller ones I go to when I go back home. It's very different because it's targeted to Italian people. And Italian people tend to like Italian cuisine because it is tasty.

sometimes really crave it. I crave my mom's lasagna. I crave my mom's, know, or my grandma's that I grew up I grew up in also a household where, you know, cooking was important and it was like, you know, my mom would cook a lot and my dad too, like, you know, fish was his thing. So like, I really grew up with this like cooking thing and I can realize now how much more I should have appreciated it. Cause now I'm lazy and sometimes I'm like making very random lunches. But,

I was delivering it Egypt, so it's good. That's right. Whatever is in the fridge at some point. But I think for me, it was a shot for certain things and there's definitely still some things I'm not as open minded to, like ketchup on pasta. And it's hilarious, I definitely get triggered by cutting spaghetti, ketchup on pasta. Pineapple on pizza. See, and I actually was going to go there.

James Doran (40:19.112)

I may get my passport taken away. I don't mind it. I don't mind it. I actually don't. Paranpizza, chicken on pizza, not a fan. Broccoli on pizza, also don't get it. So there's certain things that I don't get. Banana? Because in Sweden they put banana on pizza in Sweden. Yeah. Your face said it all. Exactly. That's why I'm great. If you tell me like, is it good? I refuse to.

I didn't try it. was put off by it. was like, this just seems wrong. Yeah, doesn't. Banana and tomato sauce alone doesn't sound good. again, I think like, yes, there's still things that shock, but I'm usually more shocked about things about Italian cuisine specifically and ways that things are different abroad. at the same time, bit traveling and a bit of like me trying to understand human behavior.

and marketing, like my background is also in marketing. And so like, it also makes sense. Your target audience isn't Italians. so does it, is pizza here, for example, here, they put like so many different types, they forget mozzarella and then they put all this different type of cheeses on it, cause people like it, right? And so you got to the point where you just understand a bit why and you get a bit more open. And again, I've tried things like pineapple on pizza. It's actually fine. So I do have my boundaries, but I think

after being shocked about certain things. And I think there's still things that I don't fully understand, but it makes me more open-minded and it kind of makes you understand how there's taste and flavors, but then you can see a bit of the cultural side of things and why things are in a certain way. And one thing I do love from being abroad is access to international cuisine. And especially here in Canada, there's amazing...

Asian cuisine, Asian restaurants, like different types. can go from Indian to Japanese to like Thai and Vietnamese. And it's in that sense, way more international, right? There's not just Canadian restaurant. There's usually like some sort of whatever fusion or... Tim Hortons. Yeah, Tim Hortons. That's a classic. And of course some diners are like, you know, here it's quite classic. You you go to the diner.

James Doran (42:40.014)

that kind of like breakfast food, similar to, you know, like the English or Irish breakfast. You have the like typical way of doing breakfast, right? In each country. And so I think that's very interesting and I do love it. And then, yeah, of course, when I'm back home, I just open the fridge and eat everything that I can possibly do. And there is, I think it's not just about Italy. think for me, it's also just the some European standards of food. It's definitely different. I do think in Europe.

Overall, you can find a lot of quality in meat. I think it's just the way it is in Europe specifically. And each country in Europe has its own special food. So sometimes, yeah, I miss a bit of that European even just having boutique places to go to. Because here, even the bakery, yeah, sure, there are. But they're so expensive. They really are so expensive. And it's ingredient normally in the boutique one.

It's like the French way of making bread is three ingredients, right? But they charge you an arm and a leg for it in the of the part of the Exactly. it's hard and it's a combo. Sure. Yeah. Inflation, whatever. But it's also, think, just consumer behavior, right? Here you go to the big supermarket, you have everything in one. It's mostly decent, depends where you shop. But you don't have that, I think it's very European to be like, okay, I'm going to the butcher. I'm going to this. I'm going to the farmer's market.

You find it, but here, at least in Canada, I find it that's more of a high-end almost option than just like, yeah, I find it's a bit more premium. I will not even talk about organic, which is technically premium everywhere. It's just more expensive because it says organic, right? So yeah, I think like from a consumer behavior and availability, like you can see the differences, but I think, I think to be honest, it's exciting. Like when I first go to a country, I love to check out the grocery shop. Just see the differences.

And for me here, like my main thing was like, it's so huge. There's so much. Like what here is a normal supermarket, back home would be like a hypermercado. Like us, you know, the ones that is like the middle of nowhere because it's... You go once a month with your family. Like it's not like Tesco Express, you know? You don't really have much of that kind of... Yeah. Even the Express is still like a full supermarket.

James Doran (45:06.486)

is true in London, perhaps. Yeah, maybe not in the UK, the parts of the country, but in London for sure, it's everything you need to always there. And can I go going on to the rest of your time? How have you found the kind of reverse culture shock? So looking back at Italy or where you consider home, obviously you kind of spent your childhood in two countries, several countries. But if you can look back at Italy or

or you wanted to sort of kind of food and the ways in which it's done back home, but other parts of society, if you look back going, actually, I thought that was the pinnacle, but it's not as good, or is it things you miss or things you're really fond of, of home, which you wish you could take with you? Yeah, it's both. And reverse culture shock is very big. And I think actually anybody, you know,

in my circle who's gone through the same, like also living abroad for a long time. I think that's a general thing that people have. And I think now people are starting to talk about it a bit more, but it wasn't really talked about much before, because everybody worries about going abroad and doesn't necessarily think about going back. And it's torn. And especially regarding Italy, my heart is very torn a lot of the times. I love my country.

generally think it's beautiful. And again, after living in different places, like I see the good in a lot of the places I've lived in, there's something I love in each country. And then, you know, for me to live like, kind of find it like it has a bit of everything, right? You have the mountains, you have the lakes, you have beautiful beaches, you have great food. And I kind of like that Mediterranean lifestyle, like that slow living approach to things. But then there's things that there's a reason why I don't live there, right?

And so where my heart breaks more regarding my own country is two things. One is definitely more political, economical, right? Hence why so many young people, so many young Italians, emigrate. I mean, we've always been a bit of an immigration country overall throughout history with the wars and so on. But we call it in Italian, la fuga dei cervelli, which means the escape of brains, right? Because now there's a lot of people, you know, educated.

James Doran (47:28.342)

They tell you, you have to have all these degrees and then you can't find a job. mean, Italy is still one of the highest unemployment rates in Europe. And it's weird because Italy, it's, you know, like you would say like a first work country, there's like the economy isn't that bad. And yet it has these opportunities that are unfortunately missing and especially for younger people. And then people leave and then the country ages and then you start getting all different sorts of

social issues, right? And it breaks my heart to see that because, you know, at the same time, hear, especially here in North America, there's a lot of people, especially in Samara, they go back to Europe. And usually Italy is one of the destinations and they love it. And it warms my heart to hear, like, I want everybody to have a great time, obviously, in my countries, as anybody would do for their own country, I want them to have a great time. I want them to be treated well. I want them to eat so much that they will never forget.

obviously food and wine and that is part of the lifestyle, part of the cult. But then you also hear people who had racist comments and this side of Italy that is, think, a bit newer to it, that is very unfortunate. so in that sense, yes, there's things I missed. Could I live there right now? Probably not. And it's...

you know, besides, you know, the job market in general is not as good as, for example, even just Canada or North America. But it's not just that. It's, I think, they would feel a bit tight now. And I think that's something that I felt and that's why I've never really stayed. I love to stay. I love to see friends and family, but, you know, I love to visit. would, you know, love to guide people around Italy and have them explore my country.

But to live there, think as Italian, maybe I'm just being a bit more critical because there's a lot of people, you know, want to move there, want to retire there and so on. But for now, like I find it, it's a bit tight, unfortunately, and there's political, economical reason. And then there's a bit of, I saw a shift in mentality that saddens me as somebody who knows like how, you know, how well seen Italy is abroad.

James Doran (49:47.894)

And then, yeah, you have certain anecdotes that get to you and you're like, okay. Well, that's not nice. it? So I don't know. I don't know where it's headed, but it's still a beautiful country. It still has so much potential and it has, you know, still amazing people in there. I hope, I hope it, you know, overall it gets better eventually. That's a good point. it's, yeah, it's, it's very interesting to see that it's the kind of the

honeymoon period people go on holiday and they see it and they see it for a short period of time usually in the best time of year. If you go off out of season perhaps it's a bit different because all the seasonal work is probably relies a lot of tourism like a lot of parts of the world and that's you know where people seem to make the money and then half the year they don't make any money because there's no jobs and that's where it probably struggles so you want to be the you know

a huge cheerleader for your own country because you realise actually that's fundamentally you need to have foreign investment in tourism coming in. As you said there's not much opportunity for young people. Most of my team in the UK are Italian. It says a lot that all engineers come to do engineering in the UK and it happens quite a lot I think which is unfortunate but as you said

There's some government incentives to get people to move back and young people to be there with tax rates and things. If you start to get enough people, you start to get enough new industries popping up. It's obviously a generation of change, opposed to one parliamentary swing. I think the issue is we have in Europe and guess in the US as well, the time in parliament is so short that no one thinks about 10 years away. You always think about four years away or five years away. That's probably...

especially in Europe now there's a rise of the right wing which is quite scary thought like France, Germany, Italy, the UK has got problems as well and you think no there's a lot of hate happening all over and maybe you do want to go live in Calgary where everyone's friendly right?

James Doran (52:03.418)

yeah, they hate other stuff. Yeah, it's not perfect. yeah, no, and I think that's the issue, right? Like when hate leaks over anything, whatever that is, it just destroys things, right? Things that can be good and things that are good. But yeah, you're right. Like especially in certain fields, a lot of Italians escape. Because one of, mean, L'Università di Pisa is one of the best universities, historically, for engineering.

and like mathematics and all like that science kind of stuff. And so people, know, they have like whatever amount of degrees from there. They're qualified to do jobs and then they just can't find a job. And so I would say probably UK, it's a big one for Italians to emigrate to. And then Germany is another one still like Germany, Switzerland. And then if that doesn't work, US, Australia, right? I mean, there's a lot of that also happening. People who are a bit more like, okay, I really want to...

I don't care where it is, I just want to go somewhere and work. And yeah, and that's sometimes how Italy loses some of the use because it's not necessarily old people. For example, myself, I was like, I wanted to like see the world and that was part of my goals, right? So I think no matter what, I would still decide to, you know, go abroad for a different reason. But I think for those who actually would have liked to stay in Italy, they're missing them because I mean, unfortunately, like you got to work.

You got to do that kind of stuff, right? So you may love your country and try to work with it. But then if you keep on not finding a job, for example, or whatever it is, or not paid much to live well, people are going to start to look elsewhere, right? Completely. It was a point. Is there anything else you wanted to talk about, about being there before we go into the last section? No, ready to jump on.

James Doran (54:01.006)

So hello welcome back to the podcast. We're on section three, which hasn't actually got a title. It hasn't since it started, but it's essentially a review of your time. if you could kind of go back to your younger self, maybe not at 12, but perhaps at 18, or when you moved to across the pond perhaps and give yourself some advice for what it would be like to live abroad, maybe some...

warning of what struggles you might have or things you might want to do earlier, not necessarily change, just maybe accelerate a certain process. Is there anything you'd say to yourself to kind of help you capitalize on the other joys of living abroad? don't have necessarily advice to do something different. I think what I would tell myself is more like from a mindset, mental perspective to know.

it will be okay and to know that I actually, you know, was doing the best I could with what I had. You know, I was always very proactive and very like, you know, I'm going to get this. Kind of very stubborn or determined, depends on what I should do. But sometimes when you, when you do this big moves, you doubt yourself. The unknown makes you doubt. And so if anything, I would say more than from a, you know, operational.

side of things, I would say from a mental side of things. And it sounds very cliche, but it kind of like trust. Trust that once you've put all the effort into it, it's gonna work out one way or the other. And trust that you're gonna grow. And I think I didn't realize how much it grows and how much everything would shape me into the person I am today. And I'm pretty happy with who I am today. But I have to thank a lot of these

opportunities. so to, yeah, trust and leave that fear on the side and not doubt yourself. think that's, yeah, that's a very good point. And yeah, I guess the hurdles we face or what make us better or stronger or it's a lesson if we didn't face them, it would never have been mistaken learned from it or, or it might have led to a

James Doran (56:22.624)

a really cool thing, you've took a wrong turn in neighborhood and you find yourself in a nice new coffee shop or restaurant or you've met a friend or you turned up to the wrong thing and yeah, things worked out well. It's quite often happens in life, which we make mistakes and they end up being a better use of time or a more enjoyable experience than maybe you would have had if you had made a mistake.

Um, and they become the story quickly as well. If things go perfectly, nothing's really happened. Right. That's a very good point. Yes. Like that's the thing. Things are not going to go A, B, D, E in that order, even if you plan. Right. Um, so if you're just going to ride the wave and learn from it, that's a, that's a big thing that moving abroad teaches you. Your, your tolerance for bureaucracy probably increases living abroad and, patience probably as well, because it's

not only in a language a lot of times, but also it's a whole new system, whole new approach to many things. For instance, like if you're from Southern Europe, you're probably a bit more, I wouldn't say impatient, but a bit more forward with like asking questions. Speaking about like my friends from Spain as well, they're more, you know, they don't want to queue or wait patiently, but you go to Northern Europe, it's kind of the usual way.

especially in Sweden, especially they're happy just to wait for things and they're they're going to sort it out. Whereas, my friends have just been like, I don't trust them. What are they doing? It's taking too long. And they want to jump the queue and get it done because their time is worth more. So it's quite interesting to see like, you gain this empathy and different kind of customs in what you think is okay in your culture. Don't translate.

always. So you end up having to have this kind of universal approach to everything. Which is quite a good skill for sure, especially if you're working internationally as well. It helps quite a lot. I totally agree. Yeah, I know my patience is probably more or less the same. I just know how to cope in patience better just I think by aging more than anything and being self-aware. But bureaucracy, I... Yeah, I know.

James Doran (58:45.838)

It's never, it never gets easier in that sense. It's just, you're just more psychologically prepared, but like, oh my God, just doing the paperwork, it's just never fun. I don't think it will, in my eyes, it will never, I will never have a moment where I'll be like, this is okay. I'll always be like, oh my God, I have to do so much. But it pays off and I guess because of the reward you had once, you know, like, okay, I gotta just go through it and then I'll get a reward, which is a visa or whatever.

But yeah, no, I don't think, and this is probably just how I am. like, I don't think my patience towards bureaucracy will, will chill. But in a way, yeah, like here in Canada, like it just, there's really nothing. There's like a portal. Most of the time there's just a portal. Portal doesn't care about how impatient you are. You just got to wait. So it's more about, you know, dealing with that and, and relaxing in between. hopefully being able to leave the country if it is waiting for visas. Cause sometimes that can be quite

I guess it can really hamper your, clip your wings in such a way where you have to stay in the country for that long. I had my friend from India, he was getting his Viswa Newton in Sweden and he basically had to stay there for the whole summer because he couldn't leave the country, not even to the parts of Europe. So that kind of meant he got to explore a lot of Sweden, but he was a bit like, well, I couldn't go home or I couldn't see this people, this people and okay, it's one summer, but...

We only get like 80 some is in our life. So it's still one, you know, um, it's just quite a personal thing about it. Um, going forward and for you, so do you have any plans to live anywhere else? Do you have any, uh, desires to move to a different place or see the world? You mentioned your, your, your work is online. So maybe it's an option for you. Um, no, to be honest for now, I mean, moved here on this side of the country a couple of years ago. So was still.

you know, within the same country, but still a different area. So still ready to explore. For now, I think I'm enjoying having a base, like a more stable base and then kind of travel from it. So that's kind of my plan. As I mentioned at the beginning, I'm, you know, towards the end of that more pneumatic sprint. I'm also on the other side because of, I guess, my lifestyle up until now, it's hard for me to say like where I'll be forever or where I'm gonna, like I take it a bit more. I'm not very much of like a 10-year plan kind of person.

James Doran (01:01:10.646)

I think it's very hard to choose that far ahead. There's a lot of variables out of your control. So for the moment I can speak for the next year, couple of years. I think probably I'll be still happy unless something happens, still happy here and having my base here. then of course we'll never stop traveling obviously, but you know, just having from a living perspective, just nurturing what I have here. is your partner, are they, are they from?

Are they from Canada or are they also international as well? International, yeah. So international together. So the opportunities in everyone is always still within both of you. Are they Italian? No, Irish actually. So, yeah. Both Europeans. Same colors on the flag, so it's fine. Or very similar colors on Yeah, right? know. Sometimes it really looks the same. I'm okay with it. I like Ireland. Both bad at rugby, so it's fine.

Will censor that one. I like, like rugby. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for spending your evening or your afternoon, for you actually, my evening with me on this call and sharing your amazing journey. And I don't know if you'd like to maybe share a bit more about the work you do online and maybe you can, people want to find you or work with you. They can.

Yeah, for sure. Well, first of all, thank you for having me. I love to chat about everything. Expect living abroad, moving abroad. And hopefully this episode helps somebody out there listening to this, right, with weather moving or getting through the first months in a new place, which is always harder, the harder part of the game.

As per me, yes, you can find me at our connected world on Instagram. That's where you can, like, you know, if you have any questions, follow up, whatever, you can simply DM me. I'm happy to help. And the way I help people is I have an academy actually. It's called OCW Academy and within it, I have different programs. I have the language side of the programs, as I mentioned, Spanish and Italian, to help people with that side of, you know, traveling and moving and learning a language that way.

James Doran (01:03:23.222)

and a borderless career, found throughout my experience, a lot of the people, whether they get stuck at zero, so they can't really fully know, they feel a bit lost in knowing, okay, what kind of remote work, right? Because it's not just about building a business. There's a lot of different options. There's freelancing options, there's remote work, and there's building your own business. So one program helps with that.

And the other program is, you know, taking my background in business and marketing and so helping those who do want to build their own thing and be self-employed and kind of helping them with, you know, executing on those ideas and, and putting a plan together and actually getting, you know, going live with it. So yeah, that's kind of what it is. I'm big on education. I'm big on empowering people. So it's all programs too.

help learning the skills, but also being supported in the way that you need in your own specific journey. think everybody's on their own journey. so tailored support is very important. And even more so when it's about transitioning to a new travel lifestyle, transitioning to a new career path, where you feel particularly, you know, with doubts or a bit lost, right? And so it's important to support that way. Cause the world is a beautiful place out there and it's important to see it. It's important to explore it and make the most of.

you know, this life that we have ultimately. Massively, yeah. I completely agree. And thank you for offering those services to people. And hopefully people on this call or listening or watching can find you and seek some, I guess, more tailored one-to-one advice to help them on their journey for sure. Thank you, James.

Always. And if you have enjoyed the podcast and have found some new information you have enjoyed, please let us know in the comments. Please do share with your friends, family, your old school friends from university or wherever who may want to learn about living abroad or have done it and are interested in kind of, you know, a nostalgia trip perhaps because a lot of the times these conditions end up being a reflection for people listening as well. And as always, we'll see you next time for the Expat Pod