E071

James Doran (00:06.126)

So hello, welcome to the Expat pod. name is James, host, and today I'm joined by Dominic. And Dominic, we met, I think, because you responded to a Facebook post I put on asking for amazing people to share their stories of living abroad. And you so graciously responded to that. So thank you for that again. If you want to tell the listeners and watchers where you're from and where you've lived. Yeah, sure. Thank you, James, for having me. Pleasure to meet you. I'm from Washington, DC, United States. Grew up there.

And I've lived a few different places. I've lived in Dusseldorf, Germany. I've lived in Bromend, Germany. Currently living and working in London. Amazing. I'm sure it'll unpack the how, why and what it was like when we get into the main part of the podcast.

James Doran (00:57.454)

So welcome to section one of the podcast, or getting there. So Dominic, as I said off camera, it's essentially the how and why you managed to achieve it. So everything which led up to leaving and starting a new life in a new country. So to start off initially as to the why, what was your reason for wanting to live abroad? Did you travel as a kid or did you have an experience when you were younger, made you go, want to live abroad? What was the kind of the...

the impulse to start the journey on? Yeah, I think when you're from a place like DC, it's a very multicultural city. It's a city where you come up down the street. In one block, you can hear five different languages. And I think I was always curious about the world around me. And when you're from that region, you are always connected to the world and to politics and to language and conversations, I think in some way. So I think I always had that curiosity.

And I think that curiosity was sparked actually probably in my 20s, much older now. But yeah, I remember probably after somewhere around my graduate degree where I was studying in DC, you know, people were talking to me about ambassadorial fellowships and how these fellowships help you move abroad and how you can learn and develop work experience. And I think I was generally curious. And then I actually had a friend.

Well, two friends that were working in Japan and they were actually teaching English in Japan. And I remember visiting them in Tokyo and thinking that it was the coolest thing ever. I'd always been enamored by Japan and their culture and to see people that looked like me and that had a similar background in a place like Tokyo was just fascinating. And my opportunity came.

Um, I just finished working for pretty large digital health startup in DC. It was like a $300 million cut on the startup. And I was there for about three years. And soon after that, there was kind of one of the financial crises in the U S so this is somewhere around 2009, 2010. And yeah, I remember. Just.

James Doran (03:16.162)

being after that kind of, you know, working experience, just kind of wanting to decompress and think about some things. And long story short, I started my own entrepreneurial venture around that time where I was consulting by day. And since I was an independent kind of a consultant, I wanted to be social. So I took a bartending course and actually ended up bartending and I would bartend three or four nights a week at this little bar right on Capitol Hill in Washington, DC. And that

essentially means that everyone that went to the bar was working for some congressperson or was very much connected to politics. And one night we were talking about the Affordable Care Act or what's popularized as Obamacare. And I started describing to people at the bar how it worked. And everyone was just fascinated like, well Dom, how do you know this? You just made me a martini. Like what's going on? And this one guy was just super curious and he just

you know, kind of kept picking my brain. It was like, dude, you're like a healthcare expert, you know, there's fellowship program, you know, they'll take you to Germany. You'll get to learn German. You'll be there for a year. You'll get a tax free stipend. At the time it kind of checked off like three or four things on my bucket list. Like I always, you know, kind of wanted to live abroad. I always wanted to learn a different language. Always wanted to get paid in a different currency. And I said, oh yeah, this is cool.

So I looked into the fellowship, barely got my application in on time, but I was moving to Germany for the first time in 2010 for this ambassadorial fellowship. And I think, you know, that kind of very structured formatted way was maybe different than most because I had deep kind of intercultural training on the front end. I had significant language.

courses on the front end and even maintaining, keep the fellowship, I had to reach a certain level of proficiency by a certain time. And, and yeah, so my entry into Germany, I think was very much, it was very structured, very much fast tracked and very much developed for corporate kind of people or for people that were, you know, made careers on a little bit beyond early career. Nice. And, and could you, could you have chosen other countries or was was

James Doran (05:39.522)

Germany, the kind of the one that was being pushed. Yeah, this particular fellowship is called the Robert Bosch Fellowship. And we happen to know Bosch, I think in the States because they're branded with your windshield wipers or your, what do call it? Spark plugs. think in Europe, you know, Bosch for very different reasons. They do all of your home appliances. think what people don't know is that Bosch is a privately owned company. it's actually owned by a foundation.

And it's, think, at least 160 years old. And they had a mission to where after the Berlin Wall fell in 1989, that they wanted to these transit. They wanted to essentially develop the transatlantic Alliance. So this relationship between Germany and the U S so this particular fellowship was really much was really created for German U S relations. And so at the time they would bring.

30 Americas to Germany and they did that for over 30 years, you know, following the collapse of the Berlin Wall. And the way the fellowship was set up was that, you know, all of us pretty much came from, from either politics or business or, you know, media or law or finance. And, we received, as mentioned, you know, a lot of kind of integration support.

And, yeah, and the fellowship, essentially had to do some time in the kind of public arena, working arena, as well as in the private arena. and along the way throughout that one year fellowship, we would also go to what they call like seminars and these seminars were pretty much designed to help you contrast information. So for example, in a day in Berlin, we would go to, you know, we would meet with all of the political parties in Germany.

and hear how they think about one particular issue. Or we would go to the different kinds of media outlets like Deutsche Melle, you know, and the public media outlet or like the, I don't know, Svalda AF or something like that. And really understand how they program and kind of communicate. And so the fellowship was really designed so that you could collect all of these disparate pieces of the society.

James Doran (08:05.098)

understand how they work together, how they function and your role in that essentially through whatever your professional lens was. So maybe that was the long answer to your question, but it was really for US German kind of relations. wow. That sounds a really, really cool kind of thing to observe, especially to learn a new cultures, politics or the workings of the political systems is very nuanced to lot of countries. So it's probably quite a quote.

cool experience from your side. Was that all in German, the fun of Schiphol? Was that in English? But then you would learn German as you went along.

James Doran (08:43.63)

Yeah. Uh, so my language training started in the U S so once I received kind of the notice that I was traveling up, I think it was January, 2010, uh, the next week I was paired up with, you know, a language instructor who was actually teaching German at one of the local universities. And so I had eight hours a week, one-on-one from someone very highly qualified and that eight hours a week.

ramped up when I got to Germany, when I got to Berlin in June 2010. And so from June to August, it was four hours a day in a group setting, Monday through Thursday. On Wednesdays, I would also have a one-to-one instructor and on Wednesdays, I also had a tandem partner. And with my tandem partner, would meet once a week.

We would do 30 minutes in English and 30 minutes in German. And this is just, you know, I don't want to call it a random person, but just a very lay person. And for, you know, primarily we would speak in German and then the way, as you can imagine, if you're in a public institution in Germany, 80 to 90 % of your work is going to be in German. So I was working for this group called the

The very short name is the GKFAU Spitzedverbund and that's the very, very short name, but what it translates to in English is the National Dachatory Health Insurance Association. So this is essentially the group that works with all of the sick funds, public sick funds in Germany. And the public sick funds are insurance vehicles that cover 90 % of the German population. So as you can imagine in that setting, 100 % of my work was in German, 100 % of my interaction was in German.

And then I had a little bit of a transition because the half of, know, my fellowship was with Bayer Pharmaceuticals and the global working language at Bayer was in English and my manager was also from the United States. So yeah, the way it worked for Bayer Pharma in Berlin, German helped, but typically, you know,

James Doran (11:03.298)

like PowerPoint presentations would be in English, but you would still need to use German and it would help to speak in German when you're in the cafeteria, for example, and having conversations with colleagues around the water cooler, so to say. And those kind of, think, interpersonal connections and meeting someone in their cultural context, I think, helps to build relationship. Massively so, yeah.

It's very interesting to have the amount of contact hours you needed in order to learn another language. It's, yeah, as someone who's tried to learn German, primarily by myself, it is difficult. I can get by, but it's drastically dropped off in the last few years since I started trying to learn Swedish instead. yeah, kudos to you for committing to it, because that's the main thing, you have to commit the time and immerse yourself in it. Otherwise, it's very difficult, I think.

Yeah. I mean, I think I found shortcuts, you know, and, and by shortcuts, mean, I just, so something I learned about myself, and I think this is what travel kind of teaches you. always teaches you more about yourself. And I think what I learned, what, and something I always ask myself is how can I do something faster or how can I do it better? And so what I actually did, I think to learn German is a very simple, but it's something that 99.9 % of people never do.

I recorded myself speaking German and I would just play the tape back, you know, and this was before everyone had an iPhone, you know, but so I had like a literal voice recorder and you know, later on over the past several years, I have, you know, I use my iPhone to record, but I would sit with my language book and read, you know, the material and just play a bat like all damn at the gym. played my German. I listened to myself in German before bed. listened to myself in German.

When I wake up, listen to myself in German and when you hear yourself speak another language and you start to correct yourself and you start to say, I say this word very strangely compared to the way a German would say it. Like that's when you, that cognitive, I think tool really helped accelerate my German learning and I think really helped in those first few work experiences for sure.

James Doran (13:29.774)

massive massive say it's a really really fun to, um, I think it going forward in time then to your next move. You, you moved from the Germany to the UK, but what, what kind of spurred that opportunity? it work or was it just the, the opportunity to, live in, in blighting or? Yeah. Well, I think, so what happened was, so I moved to Germany in 2010 for the one year fellowship. It's there for one year. I moved back to DC. I was.

in DC for two years. And then I moved to Dusseldorf in 2013 and I was in Dusseldorf for about two and a half years. And I had started an official career with Bayer at that time. And then I moved to Berlin in 2016 and I was still working for Bayer, with a different part of the FUR. And I moved to London beginning up

2023. literally January last year.

and I think, you know, to go from that fellowship experience and, know, the 10 years or so between then and now. What I came to the conclusion, you know, I think when you're an expat, there's a certain level of romanticism that comes with being an expat. You know, every day is a little bit different. What no one tells you is that you can find a piece in your day.

That feels a little bit like a vacation. You know, when you're from the States, for example, when you move to a country like Germany or you're living in Berlin and you go have lunch with your colleagues and you have a beer. Like the first time I did that, I was like, Oh my gosh, like this is, we're having a beer at lunch. Like, Oh wow. You know, whereas in Germany, it was like, yeah, having beer at lunch. It's very much something you do and it's completely okay. And no one was going to judge you for it.

James Doran (15:32.554)

And, you know, once kind of an awful tee of being in a different country where it's off and you think about, I was, you know, living there for nine, 10 years or so. And I've worked in many different capacities while I was in Germany, you know, I held three different roles at Bayer. Rode it probably three or four times. I think, and

what I learned and what I liked, I was able to do the work that I really liked to do. So I was doing, was, you know, my last role at Bayer Pharmaceuticals, I was global, had a global director role. was leading a team that was doing investments and partnerships for Bayer. So like equity investments for the company. And when it came to, you know, really being in in a con, in a working context that I really enjoyed.

I think I started to unpack how challenging, how challenging it was to really scale that work in that institution. And especially with that institution kind of going through, you know, its own kind of macro dynamics, financially. so, you know, I was, once I kind of put the company into context, was

Okay, then how do I put myself into context? Did I really want to go to another big German multinational pharmaceutical company? I had to weigh that decision. And once I decided no, it was okay. Do I, you know, work for one of these digital health companies in Germany? And I mean, the company down the street, they had raised maybe 80 million euros and I knew people on the board of directors and

You know, but it also, it was a very different, I imagine it would be very challenging for me to go from a place where I had a very, very global view and did very, very, you know, global work and had global level data to go into a very kind of confined business country view. And also go from an organization where at Bear Farm in Berlin, you know, I worked on a campus with 5,000 people to go to

James Doran (17:56.926)

an office environment with maybe, you know, 50 to a hundred people. So I decided it was time to leave Germany and it was time to leave Berlin. Although, you know, Berlin will always hold a very special place in my heart. decide if I want to do the work that I enjoy and it had to be somewhere else. And I think any, what most expats and I think part of what, you know, this podcast is about is like how to be an expert or why to be an expat.

And I think in the expat context, it's a little bit like the real estate context, location, location, location. Everything comes down to location because that creates the context for everything else. So what I did when I decided it was time for me to leave, I wrote down a list of the five cities that I would work in. And then I said, I'm just going to at work to 10 different people in these cities and kind of see where things go.

And so on that list, I had, you know, like New York, Washington, DC, my hometown, Miami, San Diego, in London. And I was getting pretty good traction in those places, but London just kind of started floating to the top. And then I started thinking how culturally it would be a much easier transition to go from a Berlin to a London, instead of a Berlin to a New York or Berlin to a Miami.

And yeah, I got a lot of traction with a bank here in London and in late 2022 and moved here in January with a job and everything else. That's really cool. And when you kind of started that journey then, it all different financial jobs you were looking for in London or was it a particular sector? it still pharmaceuticals you're involved in now or is it more...

global equity or anything like that? Yeah, I mean, I'm really a healthcare person. And so, and I have a pretty deep healthcare network, as you can imagine. I've worked at Bayer for, I don't know, nine or 10 years.

James Doran (20:11.752)

I knew I wanted to work in healthcare and I wasn't, I didn't have my mindset on any kind of particular role. So again, I think this is where that location, location, location, monitor comes in. think that where you work kind of in some ways creates context for the kind of work that you do. So London happens to be a financial city. I think New York happens to be a financial and a marketing city, Miami.

you know, happens to have some context for business, but also a fun city. So the kind of roles, I was connecting with, they were a little bit around equity. Some, were also very much connected to venture, but they all had kind of this thread for healthcare. so for example, when it came to the people I was connecting with in New York, they were doing, venture investing for healthcare companies in New York.

And in London, this bank, this particular bank was focused on banking, is focused on banking venture backed healthcare companies, not just healthcare companies, but focuses on high growth venture backed companies in different verticals. So healthcare just happens to be one, but also for interior tech, climate tech, deep tech, consumer. That's quite cool. No, yeah, that's amazing.

on visas then obviously being a US citizen, did you get support with visa applications when you first moved for your fellowship and then back again to just sort of for Europe and then how did it happen for the UK? Yeah, I've been very fortunate I think in that regard. So for the fellowship, yeah, I had a lot of support through the Bosch Foundation. I don't, I barely remember the visa process. I remember

you know, later on working for Bayer officially a little bit clearer what that was like for the EU blue card. because, but even still, you know, multinational like Bayer provided a lot of support. So when I would have to go to the Auslanderbe Horde, you know, the, the foreign office, they was in someone with me and I would just kind of sit there and maybe say a few sentences in German so they know I speak German. But the paperwork was often

James Doran (22:35.694)

mostly done for me. I would to renew my blue card, I would have to go back on my own. Um, but I think, you know, those first few times were hugely helpful. And then I think the one thing I have learned through kind of my travels is that I'm very much a city person. think some people like country sides living in Dusseldorf taught me that, you know, I need a city at scale and a city with, um,

I do like cities, I guess is what Dusseldorf taught me. And so when I moved from Berlin to London, there's a consulate office right in Berlin's right at, at shall say Straus, I believe for the UK. And yeah, the bank kind of covered all the costs. did an expedited kind of visa process. maybe I had to let them all my passport for about a week or two. And we see the visa in the mail.

so it was pretty really straightforward, kind of a process.

James Doran (23:46.862)

So welcome back to section two of the podcast all about being there. So Dom, you kind of touched upon quite a lot of the kind of being there initially for you, for why you were there and the work you were doing. But if you can go to your first impressions, so you got this fellowship, you'd moved to Germany. What was it like when you first arrived and what were the kind of stereotypes you thought you'd kind of happen upon and then did they exist or was it different to what you thought it would be like?

Berlin around that time was, I think, completely amazing. think, you know, Berlin goes through, I think, different kind of evolutions or a faster evolution than most cities do. In part because Berlin has been a bit of an experimental city, you know, last probably at least a hundred years or so. and I think a lot of that, that has accelerated since, you know, the early nineties.

So I will always remember my first time landing in Berlin. I landed into Tiegel airport, which is not used anymore. And it was dark. And I remember looking at the taxi queue, which again, like, you know, to see a taxi queue with all Mercedes Benz's, it was like, whoa, like, where am I? You know, it was my first time.

We really traveled into Germany and even now you travel to, um, you fly into Berlin and you can't fly into teagle anymore. You're allowed to have a different car if you're a taxi driver. So in 2010, you still had to have a Mercedes to be a taxi driver and to see like 30, 40, 50, you know, Ben's taxis was like, what? Like, this is crazy. Like, you know, the taxi and

Uh, this guy and I had two suitcases, so I moved with only two suitcases. And I will always remember this, you know, Turkish taxi driver. He had this like, giant red star tattooed on the back of his head. And he was, you know, speaking like Turkish German, which is very much what the Germans are called like, um, Gangsburg, you know, like street German, which I didn't murder. And I'm like, I don't talk to this guy and he's asking me questions.

James Doran (26:12.302)

And, um, but I gave him the address to where I was going. Uh, and he, takes me there and it's, you know, again, it's like dark and it's summer is June in Berlin and maybe like a Friday night. And, I get to, uh, to my apartment, uh, for the summer and this woman, she's completely drunk. She comes up to me and started speaking to me in German.

had no idea what she was saying. I was trying to get my tea out this box. Yeah, kind of go through that process. I mean, I guess some of this was relevant because I would end up seeing this woman around the neighborhood weeks later, months later. But I remember dropping off my two suitcases, getting in my apartment, and then saying, I'm going to go get something to eat. I'm in Berlin. I'm going to go out. And I think that first weekend, I ended up at

some party in Berlin, probably at home at like seven, eight o'clock in the morning, you know, like my first weekend. And, I mean, that's very much like a Berlin kind of an experience, you know, and, I was really fortunate because I had a support network as soon as I got to Berlin. So the people in my fellowship, you know, which were very much, I guess, professional types all from the U S but even beyond that.

And my apartment building, happened to be some U.S. football players staying in the same apartment as me. And so I got to know, you know, people socially as well, pretty much my first week or two, big Germany people that I still keep in touch with that I was even texting this morning, you know, that I met back, I guess that's almost, you know, 10 years ago now.

There's this saying that Americans are like peaches, Germans are like coconuts. And when you make friends, so to say, as we say in English, make friends. Yeah. Like when you make friends in that country, I mean, those are pretty much your friends for life. You know, you're not, then they will always kind of be your friend. I massively completely. Yeah. I think I completely agree with that. It's, it's that shared struggle for the speak. And by football, do you mean soccer or do you mean American football? No, no, I mean,

James Doran (28:34.702)

Literally American football. Why were they in Germany? Were they playing for a team there or just traveling? Oh yeah, so didn't clarify that. Yeah, so actually Germany has an American football league and yeah, there are a lot of Americans that play football in Germany and in part the GFL, the German football league was, it's a little bit the legacy of the national football league in the US, the NFL.

There was a point in time where they had European teams all over Europe. So not just Germany, but also Italy, Poland, France. and they have kind of scaled back, but I think the national football league has always had the ambition to be a global brand. And this is why they still play these games, you know, five times a year in the UK. And they also have a German game, I think in Munich in a couple of weeks.

yeah, I think tomorrow they actually play in Wembley, stadium. So, so yeah, so there is a German football league, and it's American football. And so these, these guys were actually playing and now they're coaches, you know, in the German football league, quite a few of them. That's pretty cool. Yeah. My, my, my team are the Jets and they were playing in London last week, I think, but they're not very good apparently.

Yeah, that's really cool. then I guess when you, you, so obviously you did this fellowship and you said you were surrounded by your cohort of people in the same situation as you and so your, your neighbors who also being expats that really helped you. When you moved again to go to Dusseldorf, what was that experience like? Were you moving by yourself for a role or were there other Americans?

in the area at the same time as you would the company help you out in that sense as well? You know, I think initially I did, you know, really kind of try to build a network. So there is a group called InterNations. And so InterNations would have these different expat meetups. You would meet expats from all over. And Doosalore, think, has a very strong kind of internations community. And these kind of internation communities exist in most places where expats kind of hang out. And I think they are quite helpful.

James Doran (30:59.32)

for building community and finding connection. I think for me also, you because I moved to Germany at such a corporate context and I had still, I think, have a US work ethic, it's sometimes hard to, or challenging to focus on building a network as opposed to focusing on your work. And I think probably after about a year,

And also kind of the mantra given to me, you know, from my manager, she said to me when I started at Bayer, she said, Dom, you know, your first year enrolled at Bayer or any multinational, like work your butt off your second year, have fun your third year, find your new job. And, you know, I kind of, you know, modeled, I think my career at Bayer in that context. And.

By the time it was time for me to have fun, so to say, I think I came to the conclusion that like culture in Dusseldorf was very challenging. I think I, from my, and this what led me to liking, you know, cities because like Dusseldorf to me, I call it like the Stepford Wives community. You know, like there's this movie, Stepford Wives, it's been done twice. The original was in like the 1970s. think there's a...

maybe late 90s or 2000s version of the Stepford Wives. But essentially like you're a perfect society, you know? And what I mean is like in Dusseldorf, everyone would go to work at exactly 8.45. So there was a rush hour from exactly 8.45 to nine o'clock, you know? And if you left home at 8.40, I mean, you could, it's completely clear, but to the minute, if it was

844 to 845, I mean, you're like just stuck. If you wanted a dinner reservation at eight o'clock in Dusseldorf, forget about it. Everyone has to have dinner at precisely eight o'clock. If you have a reservation for 730, you can get into almost any restaurant you want in the city. Also found it to be, and again, there are things I love about Dusseldorf, but for me it was also, it became, et cetera.

James Doran (33:22.038)

routine to wear on Sundays you go to the Rhine you have a beer you know when I would have guests in from the states we would maybe do like the one hour walking tour through Dusseldorf like they would come see me we would walk through the park we would walk through Bokestrasse or so the old city we would walk across the Rhine we would pay I think one euro to go to the Kitt Museum Künsten tunnel

see a cool wacky exhibit, continue walking on the Rhine, go up to the TV tower, have a drink, maybe eat and media often. Like that's it. You know, there's not much else. Um, if we're adventurous, we go to Cologne, right? And that's, but like that's it. Yeah, exactly. Um.

So yeah, I don't know if that answers your question directly, but I think, I felt like community, I think leaving Dusseldorf quite a bit, you know, because it was a two hour train ride to Amsterdam, maybe three hours to Paris. So I used to go to Paris, traveled to Paris quite a bit. I think after my first carnival experience in Dusseldorf, like I was terrified because the people in Dusseldorf are different from the people in Cologne. Like in Dusseldorf,

It's a very, in German they call it Shikimiki and Hochnase. You know, like people are chic and, you know, they have this like shopping culture, but Hochnase means like they have their nose in the air. You know, they look down on other people, but around carnival time, they are completely loose and jovial. And it's the only time of the year that they're that way. And I was actually terrified. So every carnival season that I live in Dusseldorf, like I would

traveled to Amsterdam and it became such a routine for that brief period. Like I would see the exact same people that had left Germany during carnival in Amsterdam, you know, for at least a couple of years. So yeah, I think I found my community in Dusseldorf outside of Dusseldorf is maybe the answer to your question. Now the carnival was really cool. I actually went to visit Cologne and Dusseldorf for carnival in 2020. So just before the COVID pandemic kind of rained down.

James Doran (35:45.09)

I was there for a carnival, which was, it was quite interesting, but I was only there for a weekend. So it wasn't, it wasn't every year that I experienced that. but I thought it was, it was quite good fun. But as you said, if it's such a contrast to what they're normally like, then it can be quite. Yeah. I think also, I mean, to, know, I mean, like I'm in black skin. So for me, like people would come up to me just to talk to me about like.

my skin in Germany. And so like to be in do so, like I remember I was trying to have a drinks with colleagues during Cardo or in this bar. And some guy comes up to me like do best on cam for like, he's like, you're like a fighter. I'm like, you know, there are a hundred drunk German guys around. Like, why are you calling me a fighter? Like, not going to fight. And you know, he was trying to be complimentary in the sense that it took you

You probably had to fight through some things to get to this point in your life, but being singled out in a crowd of your own people, it's not fun. Is I think what I mean, you know, in my kind of personal context. There's a sense of, you know, the, the intent was quite good, but it still was a prejudice or a unconscious bias comment made because of what you said, you know, you had to show a different

Yeah, I saying like, would be fun if I could just exist in that kind of environment. But I think, and this is maybe the other thing about Germany to your other, to your earlier question, I think in part one, in of like leaving, I think I did come to the conclusion that when you don't look German, then German people interpret you.

And so there, and I was actually looking at the, someone was joking about this through a meme the other day, like they have this culture where they just stare, you know, and I came to the conclusion after many years being stared at that I was like a walking living catalyst, you know, in Germany. And it always makes you hyper aware of yourself.

James Doran (38:05.142)

in a way that you don't have to be in a place like London. In London, I can just go outside and no one's gonna stare at me. I'm pretty normal. And if they're looking at me, maybe they like me. Maybe they like my shoes, maybe they like my jacket. They're probably gonna tell me, know, hey, I like your shoes or hey, cool jacket. You know, and I've had, you know, neighbors, I've worn a cool straw hat. My neighbor's like, I like the cut of your jib. I like your hat, you know? And whereas in Germany, it's...

It's quite different, I would say. It was a very funny song by a British comedian, he's British Asian. And it's got a song which is called, You Checking Me Out or Are You Being Racist? Because you know, are always people who will be staring at him. I'll have to send you it. It's really funny. I'll put a link to it on my socials so everyone who's listening can go watch it. But what you just said then reminded me of that video.

provision of that I am white and middle of blue where I lived, but white and in Sweden it a similar thing so I didn't stand out in that. I probably stood out in Sweden because I'm two years tall so I get pointed out for being quite tall and asked about the weather and stuff. It's nearly the same as it would be for someone who's obviously of different colour but it's annoying. I find that annoying but I can still go and blend in upside down somewhere no one would comment on me or pick me out.

who would try and have a fight potentially even stood up. it's difficult to hear what you're saying and understand, know, I think the world seems to be a lot more...

I guess kind of accepting of everyone or diverse or, you know, inclusive, but it's still not because it's still that subconscious level of bias or there's that level of maybe curiosity. But the fact that it's come out, it's still quite a, it's still picturing someone differently. Even if it's come from a place of, know, not aggressiveness, but, you know, support, it's still, you know,

James Doran (40:17.102)

commenting on it which is not the point it's all about to be you know let's just enjoy you being your friends or or someone else being with their friends so it's yeah so fortunately that happened and you did it's a good thing you mentioned that London is is very much a melting pot of everyone I think since the Windrush generation came over it's been the UK's been enriched so much by different cultures and yeah and languages and everything else so I think we're very lucky in this country that that happens and

Um, albeit there's some people on the far right and it has, you know, been quite prevalent in the news this summer, unfortunately, but that's, that's a small percentage of the country and every country in the world has a small percentage of those people who are just, um, antagonizing hate, which is really unfortunate. Yeah. I'm glad to hear that you're happier in London. The UK has been a

place where enjoy it probably similar to Washington then as you mentioned at the start of podcast at Washington, a diverse place where you walk on a block and hear five languages right so think London's quite similar. London I probably walk, I hear about eight to ten languages, easy yeah. And on London then so obviously you moved also for corporate role and by yourself I imagine or for job without going to a co-op with the people.

how have you found making friends there? Have you joined any like, hobbies or clubs or anything in your kind of social life to make friends or is the kind of UK drinking culture in the office men that you've got out with some colleagues? Yeah. London socially is, it's very different from, I think, a German kind of a city. And I think, you know, for me, lot of my social activity was really

around dating. You know, I think I found dating in London very refreshing after living in Berlin because of Berlin. You know, I was a bit like an anomaly. You know, a lot of people don't have corporate jobs in Berlin. So my friends in Berlin were very much like artists or dancers or, you know, chefs and restaurant tours or DJs. And I was kind of like the one going to work every day is like

James Doran (42:36.558)

Why don't you just model or have like a gig or be a barista like that? And to be fair, your barista in Germany will have like a PhD in nuclear physics or something random, you know, like that's the kind of city Berlin is. Um, so I think it was, it was interesting to come to London and to date, you know, people that had like jobs.

lack of better words, you know, and that were educated and, you know, own their homes, you know, and it was, to your point earlier, quite a bit like DC. So socially, know, I mean, I'm at a point in my life where, again, and after living in Germany, like making friends, it's not like

To me, it was more about like I wanted to go to a place where I could establish roots, you know, and I think as an expat at some point, you do have to decide if, when and how and why to establish roots in a place. So that was probably also part of why I left Germany because I didn't really feel like I could put roots there. I felt differently about London. And yeah, I actually got engaged earlier this year.

to an amazing woman and yeah, and to be fair, think the German like social culture for drinking is a bit weird.

in the sense that like, like it. do go out with my colleagues to, for beers every Thursday or, you know, maybe once a month we'll have pints at the pub. But two things that make it weird as an American is that no one eats and everyone just stands up. And it's like, in the States, if you're going to go to happy hour with, with your colleagues, you're at least going to have some nibbles or you're at least going to sit down. And so.

James Doran (44:45.556)

stand up for three hours, drink like six pints. Yeah, it's not like high on my to-do list. I mean that's been right about childhood, is your condition from a young age to be able to do that, that's part of our school curriculum. Yeah, I missed that lesson. And we haven't got a drive everywhere, which is probably why it's more popular. But it's amazing that then, know, as you said, so is your fiancee, is she...

British or is she an expat herself? Yeah, she's a British Eretrian and she has a British passport. She's awesome. she from London then or is from somewhere else in the UK? She grew up here. Yeah, it's from a proper Londoner. It's quite useful to have local knowledge and some support of where to find really cool things to go or how to avoid potentially tourist traps and things. I feel like actually I've introduced her to more of that. Like she's such a homer, you know, in a home body. Like I'm the one.

shows. You know, she does maybe help me with like the grocery shopping and whatnot, like where to find certain things. but otherwise introduce her to, I think greater London or so than, that she introduces me. Yeah. then, on the food topic, obviously food is such a, a cultural, kind of staple in everyone's kind of life. Food is what

you need to live, right? And everyone has their own takes on it. So leaving the US and going to Germany, how did you find that in terms of, you know, the different food that was available to you and going to the Supermong for the first time? What was that like? Because it can be quite an overwhelming experience looking at all the packaging in different languages and trying to find what you can buy and not buy. Yeah. Yeah, I remember it was such a culture shock, especially when I first moved in.

in 2010, almost started a blog called more ketchup, al's, tomaten salsa, like more ketchup than tomato sauce. Because like, distinctly remember going into a German supermarket for the first time and they had like rows and rows of ketchup, like curry ketchup, some other kinds of ketchup, pines, and then like maybe like one row of tomato sauce. I'm like, what is this? Like.

James Doran (47:12.686)

It's really kind of bizarre. do think, you know, and I lived in Germany for long time. Food culture changed in Germany. when I first moved to Germany, when I first moved to Dusseldorf, you couldn't find an avocado in a grocery store. You know, even at the Turkish market, you couldn't find an avocado. I think now you can find avocados pretty much everywhere, you know, throughout the country.

Yeah, it is like one of those things. I would spend hours in the grocery store. And I think what I learned is that to really have, but you can't go into a supermarket or grocery store with your native mindset. You know, you have to go there with a local mindset and to really grocery shop. I would have to shop from at least two to three different kind of grocery stores.

think the culture here in London is to where everything is designed around convenience. So, um, I may go to the butcher every once in a while. I may go to, there's a fish market right on Essex road, which is pretty well known. Um, but everything is delivery, you know, either through one of the kind of delivery apps, whether it's, I don't know if you're sponsored for like eating these with like Uber eats or deliver, you know,

can they can sponsor me almost 24 hours. We'll say it a couple more times. I'll be your one sponsorship. Um, but, uh, but yeah, like those kinds of things. mean, we're in Germany. would never think about convenience. It was, you know, I take my two grocery bags and I go to the store. And actually, if you were to like Google or go to YouTube around like German supermarket market experience,

You will find hundreds of videos from expats having an experience in the German supermarket because they have such a culture of like moving through the queue quickly and you know, you have to bag your own stuff and you're always like, my God, I got to get my stuff. and it's like a high pressure kind of a situation, really because you have to like have all your stuff in place. You also, the coolest thing though about

James Doran (49:40.206)

supermarkets in Germany is they collect fund, you know, so you get 25 cents for your plastic and glee 15, five or 15 cents for your glass. And that's the coolest thing because you know, every time it's almost like every time you go to the grocery store, you're going to get at least like a dollar off your, your total grocery bill or a euro off, know, uh, without trying it's like, I mean,

you know, a coupon every time you go. It's cash back, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. We have the other similar thing in Sweden as well. It's a pant for all your cans. You would get one kronor per can, which is 10 cents roughly, I think. But it's enough. You had a few friends over for a few drinks. You've got enough cans to, you know, buy some more beer for next time.

Exactly. Going forward in terms of the working cultures then. So obviously you said you essentially having your American working life whilst abroad. How have you felt that in the UK? What's that been felt the same? it closer to going back to the US? Because London finances is quite a grind culture for most. I'm an engineer so I don't work in finance but I have friends who work in finance in London.

a lot of showing up and putting the work in. Is that still the case or is it similar to the US or worse or better? Yeah. So, well, let me kind contextualize something. So I did speak in English when I was in Germany working for Bayer, but I wouldn't call the work culture American at all. was a very much like, I mean, it's a hundred year old organization, highly matrixed, lots of hierarchy, very formal.

I think, yeah, but what I liked about a German culture is you can be very direct. You can also be critical and no one's going to take it personally. Whereas I think, and this is what brings me to the UK because I think in the UK, you can't be necessarily as direct and you absolutely can't be looked at as being critical.

James Doran (52:04.652)

because the word culture here is much more subtle and it's nuanced. And I think that was probably my learning curve here, especially coming from a place where it could be direct. can tell a manager if they're wrong and that's okay in many instances in Germany. And you can have those kind of direct critical conversations and critique something because it's a culture that values

criticism I think in Germany or I would say that Germany values observations and if your observations happen to be critical then that's actually helpful. Whereas I think a UK work culture it's a lot more nuanced socially and I think you know the bank that I work in has essentially a flat hierarchy but people still like to be respected through their titles.

You know, and they still want to be addressed a certain way. And the bank that I work for is a commercial bank. You know, it's not an investment bank, but we do work and, um, you know, but we also kind of take the values quite seriously as a bank because the companies we work with have a certain new values and certain kinds of values. Uh, I think that we kind of go through like,

We go through cycles. I Q4 in a bank is, can be a challenging time if, you know, your numbers don't look a certain way from kind of earlier in the year. think financial services in the UK, I think a lot of people kind of check out, uh, what I've seen in like mid July, August, you know, which I appreciate because

You still have 30 kind of days of holiday here in the UK. Um, so for me, it's also becoming more aware of the subtleties of the word culture, whereas, yeah, there aren't that many subtleties in German in Germany. They're either going to know very clearly of someone or if they don't and they may even tell you and you can defend yourself. least you know, you stand right with, yeah. Yeah.

James Doran (54:33.278)

Exactly. There's a few like translations of British emails to people and like what they say and what they really mean. And like you were saying about like the subtleties of telling someone to bugger off essentially. You can do that in a formal way, but like Luke Walmer Grant or something like that. It's quite funny just to see them and how they differ.

I, going on to kind of another key point of living abroad is homesickness. So obviously you've lived abroad for quite a long time. Is there been points where you've kind of missed things from home or people or music or certain parts of the U S culture? yeah, of course. I mean, I think number one is food, right? And there are certain foods that I just know I'm never going to be able to get here that I would be able to get back in DC the same way.

for example, blue crabs and like blue crabs, that's like the symbol of Maryland. And when they're in season, you can go get them and it's a time to have like crabs and beer with your family and your friends. Like, but I think what I try to find when I'm somewhere is. I think, especially for Americans, maybe even a little bit for the Brits, when you go somewhere, think oftentimes we sometimes go to a place.

with colonial expectations where we try to impress our culture or expect our culture from a place. Whereas I think I've come to a point where culture is what it is and culture is often defined through history. And I think, you you mentioned the Windrush generation, you know, maybe a few hundred years before the Windrush, you know, you had the East India Trading Company, you know, I mean like,

And even before that you had the, the Silk Road, you know? And so this whole concept of like spices and Indian culture and Caribbean culture here in the UK. Yeah. I think it's wonderful that I could have 10 different kinds of jerk chicken or curry goat if I wanted to on any given night. when do you think that like I'm able to identify like holes in culinary culture?

James Doran (57:00.194)

You know, so for example, Dusseldorf probably has the best sushi in all of Europe, you know, because culturally they have a lot of Japanese headquartered companies in Dusseldorf. Like who knew? And they have the largest population of Japanese people or highest concentration of Japanese people in all of Europe in Dusseldorf. Like who knew? You know, unless you're there and they have a little street called Little Tokyo, Emermins Trassa, right? And certain restaurants are Emermins Trassa.

It booked like 90 days in advance at least just to get a reservation because it's super high end sushi. And, yeah. And I think it's so fascinating because,

and like a place like London, like I can like going back to the example of jerk chicken or, you know, curry go, I can go to a white tablecloth Jamaican place, you know, or like a Michelin starred Indian place. which I think it's, it's completely fascinating. Yeah. I definitely ate my way through London last year. I eat a lot at home.

If you're to not bankrupt you, it's not the cheapest city to eat out a lot but it's incredible food. My girlfriend and I, or fiance and I, go quite often to live there in Fulham. I've just got a lot of friends there so it's always a reason to be there for having meals and it's great quality but it's not free. So yeah, can imagine if you're curious about exploring your own city then you will want to be out trying all these spots out.

highlighted, there's question on mile or something in London ways, different types of questions you can have every so every this down the road. And it's not, it's not cheap. But if you go in the overview, you can try a bit of each of them. Yeah. You know, and I guess like your question about like culture and I think, or homesickness really, like for me, especially

James Doran (59:10.862)

And we didn't talk about this earlier, but when I was in Berlin, I kind of found my community through food, you know? And so, um, in part because I would go to one of the few Jamaican restaurants in Berlin, but it was the only place that on Sundays they would serve American style pancakes. But let this change a little bit since then. Oh, but I would go to this restaurant, like, you know, a couple of times a month. And once you do that for years,

you know, you almost become part of the furniture and other people were doing the same thing. And so I think that's how I kind of see like restaurants as like places to connect with whole and place to connect with culture. Because like all of my friends in Berlin were all connected to pretty much one restaurant and just meeting people at this one particular restaurant. I think here in London, I don't go to one restaurant enough to

like make friends, so to say. But I do think that every restaurant is a bit of a hub of culture. And when I do get homesick, London has direct flights everywhere. Like, there's never a moment or a month where someone from home is not here. Like, you know, I've had people come and tell for the NFL or I have a friend that texted me two days ago. He's

in video production and this is like a childhood friend that I met when I was like six, seven, eight years old. He's in town, you know, working and yeah, I think being here, it's hard to be homesick. My mom was here for like a month. Yeah, I I barely have time to work because someone's always here. Yeah, at least having more time off is helpful than all those friends and family coming to visit. Exactly. Awesome.

Well, I guess there's anything more about living there or should we go to section three?

James Doran (01:01:17.166)

So welcome back to the podcast, Webm section three, which is essentially review of your time. So my first question is always, if you can go back to your younger self before you kind of moved away and could tell yourself something, bit of advice or, or maybe to do more or less of something, what might you say to yourself? I wouldn't do anything to be honest. Um, I think the one piece of advice that I give to myself would maybe be someone I

You know, I mentioned I was in Berlin for that one year fellowship. And I remember at end of that one year, not wanting to leave. or it wasn't necessarily not wanting to leave, but just thinking that it would be so hard to get back. And I think what I've learned in maybe the one thing I would tell myself is that it's not that hard, you know, and that people boomerang all the time.

And I think what they say is that, what is it? Success is where, I don't know, opportunity means preparation. You just have to always just be ready, you know, and that's all. Yeah, there's a very, very good bit advice for sure is yeah, just be ready for anything to change and you can pounce on potential opportunities for sure. If you can give some advice to someone who would be

you know, wanting to leave the U S to come to Europe in general, not specifically Germany or the UK, but you're, might you tell them? What, what you kind of advised them on, on, things to do? Yeah, I actually have this conversation fairly regularly. I think it's again, that real estate mantra, location, location, you know, through kind of my professional network or personal network, people ask me quite at least, you know, once a week.

how can I or how did you? And that location mantra is pretty important because that's going to unpack everything else. So for example, I had a friend that I went to graduate school with connect me with someone that she knew that was living in Italy. And the question was, okay, I've living in Italy for a year. I was working at this certain level.

James Doran (01:03:40.174)

when I was in the States, but I'm in Italy, I can't find a job or the jobs that I do find are way below my level. Like how do I kind of practice that to be, you know, a high level professional in Italy? And it's not an easy equation to unpack for people. And this is, think, you know, in Italy, you have to like look at the industry.

You know, if you're in a city like Rome, the industry is tourism, the industry, know, it's kind of food. It's, you know, maybe there's a history kind of aspect to it. yeah, theologians in like different locations are known for different things. And so what that essentially means is every location has its own context for economy. so.

You know, choosing a place to live abroad, it's a little bit like choosing to house, you know? So for example, anywhere, anyone has grew up, you always know that the house on this street or on this corner, people only live in this house for like a month or, know, certain businesses in certain communities, you always see them turn over so quickly. Like every business, like no business survives on that one street at that one address for whatever reason.

I think choosing a place to live or it's a very much the same. Like you have to understand the context for economy in that place, even down to like a better words or metaphorically the zip code level, the street level, kind of the address levels set because, that's what's going to really, if you want to have, you can teach English anywhere. If you're an native English speaker and you can do that, but is that going to

like fulfill you professionally, you know, or do you want to be, you know, if you were a CEO in the States, like what's the reality or how do you actually navigate being a CEO or being a certain kind of professional in Italy or, know, in Switzerland, what have you. Like, yeah, I think those are things you have to consider. For sure. That's a very good point. And yeah, you're right.

James Doran (01:06:07.47)

There's often a ceiling for someone who is not native in a lot of countries because of culture or whatever. know I had a colleague who used to work for a Japanese car company and he was saying, you know, if you wanted to get to a senior level, you tended to have to be Japanese just because of the culture that they had developed. That might have changed since, but that was very much the case when he was working there. And I think it's the same for a lot of companies.

I'm sure in Germany, think apparently to be a senior manager in engineering can be after a doctorate. It was quite a common thing. had to have a PhD to be quite high in engineering in Germany. That might have changed, but it was always way. There's little things which no one really tells you about, or it's really hard to understand unless you've grown up in that situation or culture and lived it.

romanticise your life abroad and it can be completely different for sure. Especially if have to work in a foreign language or you work in your native language and then live in a foreign language, those two things can be quite different and quite stressful for sure. Have you experienced much kind of reverse culture shock? So obviously there's culture shock moving to a new country, but now you've kind of lived in Europe and lived away from Germany as well.

Have you looked back in Germany now, having lived in the UK or look back at the US having lived in Europe and gone, we don't do that thing right at home or, you know, it's better in this, better in that. Have you like balanced the pros and cons of each country? Yeah, I've had absolutely reverse culture shock moments. I think that's part of why I moved back to Germany in 2013 because the US working system that I was in.

I mean, I just found it to be such a grind, like all I was doing was working. And I think in the States people, it's very easy for people to identify or create an identity through what they do professionally or through their work. I try to avoid, you know, saying things like, this is better or that's better. Because I think it's not very much nuanced. I think what I've tried to do is just pull from different places.

James Doran (01:08:31.19)

and try to appreciate places for what they are and kind of what they offer. I think again, you know, culture is slow, so closely connected to history and also so closely connected to language. And, you know, you're going to find the threads of any culture really in its history. And I think that's what, you know, Jeremy really taught me because a place like Berlin, it's like an open air museum.

You you can't really walk down the street without having a historical impression placed upon you in some way. so I think I just kind of try to experience culture as like, ask myself like why things are the way they are, you know, and, yeah, my reverse culture shot, my first real one happened.

So I moved back to the States in 2011 and I think it was 2012, almost a year to the date of me moving back to DC. woke up in my bed one morning at like, I don't know, four or five o'clock in the morning. Like, what am I doing here? You know, I just felt so stressed and I had just left Berlin and I traveled more than I had traveled before. Again, when you're an expat,

Like the romantic part is there will be at least one moment in your day that feels like a holiday, you know? And I did kind of miss that. And I felt like...

When you have, I just felt like I was a lot more distracted when I was in the States, you know, because you have your social network. And I think maybe that's one of the things that people do caution me about when I moved back, like don't feel obligated to see everyone at the same time. And when they ask you, you know, because it is, it is a process, I think to kind of reintegrate into a country or into a cultural setting.

James Doran (01:10:41.006)

so those things do take actual time, but I think anytime you move somewhere, does take about a year for your nervous system to catch up with like the rest of your systems. So to say, you know, so I've seen, and I've seen this happen in other expats. So where I work now, you know, when colleagues have moved from the States or they're like, people will be observing so much information through their nervous system and through other kinds of systems.

They like come forgetful or, you know, they, they missed the details and things. don't remember things. It tends to be like the most common thing that I think happens to people. And so my manager, I was almost coaching him. Like, when he moved here last year, like, because he would always forget stuff and I'm like, it's okay. You know, like you're, you're going through a lot of processes right now.

and it's going to take some time and this is kind of what happened. So yeah, I think there are kind of things that no one tells you when you have a really big move like that. Completely, yeah. think you've touched upon some really, really good points there in terms of not needing to see everyone all at once and if you go home for holidays or for vacation period or whatever.

Just see the people you feel you need to and don't worry about everyone else. sure they'll also find time to catch you up. But you've got to look after yourself in that situation and do the things that you need to do. Otherwise you come back and you're not relaxed. You've not rested because you've had to fit in seeing 30 people over two weeks, which is not fun. It's stressful or it's a lot of travel or it's a lot of demand on the body.

Obviously you mentioned you were getting married. there anything, what's the future like for you? Is London your feather home if you can have one? don't know, but is it the all kind of long-term plan to stay in London for a while or the UK especially? for sure. I think my fiance and I was sketched out pretty early on. What I like the fact, I I think so much of it is in what we've really been talking about.

James Doran (01:13:09.014)

And what travel is about, what being an expat is about. It's about self discovery. And I think I've done a lot of discovery and you have a lot of time to reflect when you're an expat and when you're in a country where winter is very dark and very cold and you don't go outside like a Sweden or Germany. And I think what I learned again, like I like cities. And so, you know, what I was saying, kind of this dating period when people told me they didn't like London, I'm saying.

They're probably not my people. You know, so I liked the fact that when we were dating, she told me she liked London. We kind of said guard. And when we got serious, we said guard rails around. Okay. She asked me very clearly, are you moving back to the States? And we agreed that I would only move back for some sort of, you know, like top job. Like I'm running for president or something. Right. Otherwise.

Yeah, mean London is a place for me. I think this is a good place to put in roots for where I am in my life right now. So 2032 we expect your presidential campaign, right? Maybe if I'm invited. That'd be cool. Awesome. Well, I don't know if you want people to be able to find you. You want to share your LinkedIn or anything else you want to share about that. If people after this call want to ask any questions or reach out, do you?

Are happy to have anything linked for where people can find you or your work? Sure. LinkedIn is probably the easiest place. It's I think my LinkedIn, it's LinkedInDKenderson. First initial D and Kenderson my last name. Awesome. Yeah. And then I just want to thank you again for sharing your Saturday afternoon with me and, and, and, know, showing your, your incredible journey so far and

all the amazing opportunities you've had and I'm sure will have in the future. And thank you for being so transparent with it all and highlight what's difficult, what's not difficult. And hopefully that has helped someone listening to this podcast to deal with something they're dealing with or be prepared for what it is like to live abroad. It's not easy. It's fun, but it's not easy. And yeah, thank you. And as always, if you have enjoyed the podcast and please do

James Doran (01:15:36.076)

Let us know, please do like, share and subscribe and we'll see you next time for the Expat pod.