E057 - The Importance of Learning Mandarin for Integration in China Embracing Cultural Differences

James Doran (00:06.126)

Hello and welcome to the expat pod. My name is James your host today done by John and John you know into school together which is you know a long time ago now and we haven't spoke for God knows how long about 13 years is it but you found you found that I didn't you would Andy and You actually went with him to China. So it's a good chance for us to understand about your journey You want to give us a quick interest about I guess you are we've lived and what you do Yes, also, my name is John

I've lived in Formby most of my life and I've also lived in Lancaster when I was at university and I lived in Shanghai for a year in China and Guangzhou for six months which was cut short due to illness and I've been back in Formby ever since. Wonderful and we'll get into the podcast and all about how you navigated your life through those places.

James Doran (01:02.168)

So welcome to section one of the podcast about getting there. So John, this is where I try and get a flavor for my guests about the kind of journey to going abroad. So it's all about the admin, the many things you have to tick off your list before you get a chance to leave. So it's all about, you know, up until you go to the airport, all the things that happened for that. So if we talk about your kind of journey to China, was this when you finished uni? No, what happened is it was right at the beginning of third year.

of university for me. So we're talking about October of 2013. Of course, like a lot of people, was thinking, you know, what the hell am I going to do when I graduate? And you know, there's like 10 billion options I was thinking of. And then one day when I was checking my emails, as you do, I saw that there was an email for someone who was going to give a talk about teaching English in China.

I thought, that sounds interesting. I'll go down and, you know, go to this event and learn, learn more about it. And I decided from there to go through the application process. And the main motivation at the time for it was I haven't traveled as much as I would have liked to at that point. And I thought there's going to be very few times in your life where I'm going to be in a situation like it was at that time where I had no responsibilities.

like no career, no family, basically nothing tied me down in the UK and also crucially as well get on to good health as well. So I had nothing tied me down so thought you know take this opportunity while you can and you know make the most of it. So that was the main motivation for applying in the first place.

So when you saw this advert come up, did you think about living abroad before or going on an exchange program or anything? Not specifically an exchange program when I was at university. I do vaguely remember seeing something similar about going to Korea, I think a few years prior to that, but I think for whatever reason that just gone out of my mind at that point, or I think I was still in first year at that time.

James Doran (03:23.278)

And around that I was applying like crazy for internships and various different things and you know got close with some of them but in the end none of them materialised. It was more as soon as I saw it and went down to the talk that yeah this is a good option for me. It wasn't like that was the plan from the very beginning as it were. Nice. And then so October 2013 was when you kind of started the ball rolling then you went to this talk? Yeah.

And was there lot of you going or was it a handful of people? From what I remember in terms of who went and who was in my cohort when we went to Beijing, there was only one other person that was from Lancaster that had gone to the same talk as me. I mean, some of those other people may well have decided to go to a different country or through a different program or whatever, but there's from off at Sol Med just one person besides me that I remember that was kind of...

with me from start to finish as it were. Were there any prerequisites you used to kind do before you kind of went, you have to have a certain grade or anything like that? I think you just needed to be a graduate in any discipline. Obviously you had to come from an English speaking country. Or I think there were exceptions if say you, like I knew a girl who was from Lithuania who did the program. I think there were

were exceptions provided to do that you had, you know, all the qualifications, you know, well, you know, degree from an English speaking country, you know, that you're in good health, start to get a, you know, certificate completed by my GP, you know, saying I was in good health, no criminal records. And then the company paid them a fee. can't remember what it was now is maybe like 100 or 200 pounds or something like that.

and they asked what you want to do in terms of age group. I think initially I opted for middle school age, so teenager kind of age. And then a few months later they're like, yeah, we've found you a Also where you want to go as well. Because I did say from the outset I wanted to go to Shanghai and my thinking with that was

James Doran (05:47.816)

I don't know if you've ever been to China yourself, but I was thinking China's going to be quite different to the UK. And if I go to a city that's quite developed like Shanghai, that's probably going to ease me in a bit more. And then if I like China, can branch out into possibly more remote places. I think it's a fantastic city to start out in China, in my opinion. haven't been, I've been nerdy going several times. We used to work for Shanghai Automotive.

The car company who had an office in Birmingham and every time I would get close to get my visa stuff So no I out they would can the camera trip because of money. So I've nearly gone several times and Yeah, I'd love to go I'd like to go for work because it's expensive to get there So it'd be quite a good time to go and you need to have a special visa or an invitation to go visit I believe as well. I think there's something like that for maybe it's just work, but yeah

I think the process has changed now since I've been there and I believe it's become a lot more complicated and lot more expensive than when I did it. But basically you have to find an employer that can sponsor you and then they get paperwork from various government departments in China and then they send you that paperwork. And with that paperwork and plus your application form, you then apply for the visa. But the visa that they give you,

might have changed name now, but was the Z visa at the time. You enter China on that and then within 30 days you have to convert it to a residence permit, which is basically like a multiple entry visa for lack of a better description. then so once you'd been to talk and you found out bit about it, which company did you actually use to support you? I don't know if they're still running. I mean, they were just called Teach English in China, abbreviated T -I -C.

yeah, so was like a small nonprofit organization that worked with, various education bureaus in China, you know, to help recruit foreigners that wanted to go over and teach English. wow. That's good. And were they really helpful with you in terms of helping you get your documents? Did they give you like a list of things to do before going to the embassy to get your visa?

James Doran (08:09.246)

yeah, yeah, they're very helpful in terms of laying out what was required and things like that. And also one of the good things is when I was going through the visa process, of course, one things that did hold it up quite a bit was, you know, I was graduating in 2014 and obviously I was going to go out in 2014. So that was kind of like the last step. But I think they, they said or the employer said via them that if you can get a letter from the university, basically confirming that you're a student and that you'll

to graduate this year, that's also acceptable. So they were pretty adaptive and ready to support you through the process. then getting you... I remember they sent me this big pack of information once. It was all ready to go and I was going in terms of what the Beijing program was going to entail that Andy also did. And...

Yeah. And then what would happen from there? So yeah, it was pretty detailed and they're always available to, you know, be contacted if you had any questions and things like that. then what were your family thinking about you about to leave to go to China and stuff at that time? How was that kind of taken? Well, my mom admitted to me years later that for a very long time, she didn't really believe me that I was going. And it was just, you know, like a phase or a fad. And I think it was

It was pretty much not until I think it was the point I got my visa, which is about six days -ish for us to go out, it sort of finally hit, like, my god, he actually is going. But although it was hard for her and my dad, not so much my brother, he's a good old sibling rivalry and all that, you know, that...

they thought they supported and for the reasons that I said that while you've got a chance to do something like this, do it because you never know what life has planned for you and could all be taken away at some point in time. Yeah, completely. yeah, I wish I'd done more things when I was a student. I did Camp America, which is pretty cool, but I wish I'd gone further field and done a semester abroad, but it's still definitely worth doing.

James Doran (10:27.89)

and in terms of things before you, we moved then, did you, guess, do you really have many things that went to your parents' house whilst you were away or did you have to sell things because you just kind of counted your student accommodation and then just left, I guess? Nothing too busy to think about in terms of life admin? not really, because I finished all my exams at the end of May and I wasn't going to China until August. So came home and had to do some like online e -learning.

to get a certificate for a WAN. It's a pretty standard thing. Of course, it doesn't really prepare you for teaching at all, but know, it's just a box ticking exercise and all of that. But because I was in like a transition period between finishing my studies and going to China, you know, it wasn't that particularly hectic. I just wanted to enjoy being home while I still there. And of course, was, you know, the Brazil World Cup at the time. So...

I enjoying that. So good point. Wonderful. And then if there's anything else you need to do before you took your journey to China? Well, just packed everything in the kitchen sink, as it were. Anything and everything I could think of. Went into the suitcase and obviously figured at the end of the day I can always get stuff when I'm there. But I did figure as well it'd be kind of like a learning exercise anyway because of not

done this before and you know I'm sure there's lots of people who do things differently you know about studying like moving abroad and all of that, knowing what they know now but I would say it's you know, I say there was any particular issues that I had I mean it's all about like 10 years ago now but there's nothing that's particularly popping out. wonder if I guess we can get into section 2 about being the

James Doran (12:26.158)

So welcome back to the podcast and welcome to section two, all about being there. So John, this is kind of to get a flavor of your experiences there. So we'll start off when you first arrived, then you arrived in Beijing, was it? Yes. And what was that like as a first impression when you first arrived? it live up to your expectations or was it completely different? It was my first memories that once I'd cleared immigration, all that. In arrivals looking for...

the people from the company found them along with a few other people who had arrived at a similar time to me and we got a taxi ride to the hotel and it was one of the most terrifying experiences of my life. was it? Yeah, it was like rush hour Beijing traffic and it was pretty scary. I suppose I remember like the first time me and the guy I sharing a room with

we've stayed friends with them ever since. And, like I saying before we started, he's lived in, China, Russia, and now Germany. I remember even sort of the first time when we left the hotel, just to have a look around, especially the UK, have this very negative image of China being like a police state and stuff. So I was kind of like, watching myself everywhere I was going, like thinking I'd get, like, I don't know, stopped or arbitrarily arrested for like no reason.

all that kind of stuff and then I realised pretty quickly that yeah none of that is warranted at all. thing with Chinese food, I would say it's not really appropriate to call it Chinese food because the country is so big, every area has a certain style of cooking. mean some of the food was amazing, some of it was like the worst food I've ever had. But I'd say it was, my first impression of China was like controlled chaos. Enter feeding.

Yeah. was your first kind of, so you went to Beijing, how long were you in Beijing for? Was it for the training? it a month or? It was two weeks. And did you get much time off to explore or was it quite a lot of time to kind of be in the sessions? I think I arrived on the Monday. I think Tuesday was roughly that time everyone arrived and they had us like doing classes on Wednesday. And, you know, I was still really jet -like by then. I think we had like maybe one

James Doran (14:43.156)

day off where I think we went to Mu Tian An Yu, which is a section of the Great Wall of China. And then we had like, duck afterwards. That was really cool. But apart from that, on the day, like we were leaving now, was like every day was, was, was classes. you get a chance to go out in Beijing much? So in, in kind of, good spas or clubs or anything? one, one day me and the guys shared the room with Mark. Mark was his name.

We went to Tiananmen Square and had a look around there. Because at that time, I don't know if you follow football much or not, but at that time the Chinese Super League was starting to become bigger and a lot more noticeable. So we're actually looking for the Beijing, Guangan Stadium, because they're the main team in Beijing. go around and have a look at the stadium. We found it.

wasn't anything going on because you know, there was no, no matches and unlike the UK, it's not like say if you go to Amherfield or Old Trafford or probably most of the big stadiums in the UK was quite a lot going on even when it's not match day, but yeah, it was dead. Yeah, no, I do follow football. I am a Liverpool fan. My parents are Oatton fans. So I was quite unpopular with my family. So then you, moved to Shanghai after that, after the first two weeks. So what was that journey like going from,

Beijing to Shanghai. Was there many of you going to Shanghai together? Yeah, there was quite a few of us that were going to Shanghai. We're one of like the largest contingents. I remember actually the last night, everyone, know, or most people were going out, you know, to clubs and bars and all of that to, you know, just enjoy the last night, that kind of thing. And Mark said to me, so, you know, John,

a story we talk about sometimes that between each other it's like you know John it's the last night what you're doing and it's like i'm going to bed you know it's like you know 10 pm and i've got to be up at like our train to Shanghai was really early it was like 4 30 or we have to be up at like five in the morning or something like that it's like i'm going to bed so but it's the last night you have to be like no i need my sleep you know and plus clubbing and stuff isn't really my thing anyway so the next morning we

James Doran (17:09.518)

or gone a coach to a train station in Beijing, can't remember which. Or I think it might have been, think it's Beijing West is the main one. I think we went there. And then we got the high speed train from Beijing to Shanghai, which was about five hours -ish. Although I remember the guy I was sat next to, he'd been out all night and I think he'd only slept about 30 minutes. He was just dead the whole journey.

the guy who was his roommate, because he was going to Changsha as well, think, and he was going much later in the day, but he knew that he had to be up and ready to go to Shanghai. he said like 30 minutes or so before the pick up, was like, wake up, wake up. I just crammed all of this stuff into a suitcase. Then we arrived in Shanghai where we met by people from the company that we're all going to work for. then we went to the hotel that we'd been.

like booked in for the week. and then for the rest of that week, it was mainly like orientation, learning about the company, what we were going to be doing, where we were going, and all of that kind of stuff. And also finding a place to live. Cause we have a lot of teaching jobs in China, usually the accommodation will be provided, but in Shanghai, that's not as common. so we have to get our own accommodation, albeit the company would have people who would help us find.

accommodation to live in and things like that. How did that happen in terms of how was that kind of journey? it difficult? Was it quick? Was it because Shanghai is huge, right? Well, it is actually quite stressful because one of the things that one of like massive, you know, strokes of luck that I had when I was in Shanghai is originally I was going to be placed in quite a far out suburb called Qingpu. I think there's a metro

I think the Shanghai Metro has expanded to there now, but at the time there wasn't one, so you had to get a bus and it would take like an hour or maybe even two hours during rush hour to get to the city center. So I was going to be based there and then because of reasons that were never really explained properly, the school you were going to go to can't take you now, so we're going to move you to the city center of Shanghai instead. So was like, sweet. I wasn't complaining.

James Doran (19:37.432)

But of course, accommodation was going to be a lot more expensive. So remember, they called them coordinators. So coordinators of the company I was working for were like a, Chinese staff and they were like a bridge between the company, local schools and us. So my coordinator took me and another teacher to look around at accommodation. to be very honest with you, everything we found was either horrifically expensive and or a massive dump.

Did you get one of these big dumps or did you find somewhere else? I think it was like a Thursday or a Friday and I think we had to check out the hotel by Sunday. So I was quite stressed at this point. God, need to... Because, you know, I didn't particularly enjoy living with strangers at uni that much. I wanted a place of my own, which I accepted was going to cost more than flat sharing. know, but that's what I really wanted to do at that time. Otherwise it would have just kind of felt like...

continuation of uni life rather than post uni life for me. It mattered to me. And I remember going on this directory, I can't remember what it was called now, but it was like a website that was focused on foreigners living in Shanghai. I it might have been called This is Shanghai. I think there's other versions of it, depending on what site you're in. And then I looked through their accommodation and then I found one place,

where the apartment looked really really good and the price was quite reasonable and it was crucially very close to one of the main metro stations so I called them up because again if they're on here they can speak English and you know it's like you hi I'm calling about apartment reference blah blah blah and they're like we've actually sold that one but we have another one that's more or less exactly the same in somewhere else in the building if you want to come look at that one I was like okay cool I'll see you in an hour so

got the tube, well the Shanghai Metro and went to this apartment and it was a really nice studio apartment in a really convenient area of the city and like so per the advert it was like 3000 RMB a month which at the time would be about 300 pounds and I'm yep and I was like okay shut up and take my money. So signed on the spot, went back to the hotel, got all my stuff in the suitcase and moved in.

James Doran (22:02.381)

later that day and I was very, very, happy. actually, because I remember one time, the first place I worked in Shanghai, because I moved after Chinese New Year to two different schools, is we were all talking one day, because worked with like seven, eight other foreign teachers from, know, UK, America, Canada, etc. about where we lived and what our living arrangements were and all of that. you know,

did it. I live with like four other people near blah, blah station, all that. And actually, John, where do you live? I was like, I live here, which is like one stop from people square. I'm like, God, that must have cost a fortune. But now 3000 RMB a month. I'm like, what? We're paying like 4000 RMB and we have to share like with three other people and stuff. but I think the reason, or I figured out much later, the reason why I got it so cheap though, because when my mom was coming to visit me,

This would have been February of 2015. one of the things that you have to do by law in China is that when you move into an apartment, you have to go to your local police station and register your address with the police. Now, if you're staying in a hotel, they do this for you as part of check -in. It's, it's normal. but here I went to my police station and I think I went the day before she was due to arrive and there was like, yeah, my mom's coming tomorrow.

I need to register her and then the police said you can't do that anymore for this building. I like why not? I said because this building's classed as a commercial building now rather than residential and indeed it made sense because like next door to me there was a bunch of like office of little offices and trade companies. mean heck I think next door to me there was like a was the same size flat but there's like 10 guys in there like living in bunk beds and stuff. So I think

So think my landlord knew that that change was coming and that they would make more money leasing it as an apartment rather than an office. So I think it was just a case of right place at the right time. Wow. Okay. So then did you have, your mom and go into a hotel or how did you get her to kind of stay in? was the, what was the workaround for that? Or was it just not registered? No, she still came in because I had a sofa bed or my sofa converted into a sofa bed. And then I think at one point we...

James Doran (24:28.494)

did go to a hotel and like registered her there. So it wasn't a big deal. From what I hear now about China, that probably would be a big deal. But back then they were a lot more lax about stuff like that. I think it's more if you're going to live there long -term and you don't do that, that's a big deal. that's a problem with the short -term tourists. They don't think they care that much. then I have curiosity in terms of your rent was $300.

Was that a large chunk of your salary or was that quite manageable? It was pretty manageable. Because don't know, yeah, because guess salaries in China are not compared to the UK. It's really cheap, right? For studio apartment. I had a one bedroom flat in where I lived for £1 ,000, which was quite expensive. yeah, that was a third of my salary on rent and then actually after taxes half my salary. But I don't know what it's like in terms of China compared to living abroad. If you want to go and be a

a teacher is there a lot of room for travel and things as well or yeah absolutely there is i mean obviously you had a very long break for chinese new year which again i got a sweet deal there because because what happened well actually i didn't actually really go traveling when i was in china that much mainly just stayed in shanghai because shanghai was huge enough anyway so i'd just rather like save some money and just explore

by different bits of Shanghai. But the first place to work that wasn't really a school as such. It was a local government initiative in Jing 'an. So Jing 'an is like bang in the center of Shanghai. It's a very small district, very rich districts. And what would happen is rather than foreign teachers be based there, what would happen is that they would come to our location. So our location was called English Village and every

and there was eight foreign teachers including me that worked there and we all had our own classrooms that were thematic so I was in the business room so the business room had a like pretend airport check -in thing, had a pretend bank, a pretend supermarket and you know there was like a sports room where there was like a goal and basketballs you know to make it interactive what would happen is local schools would come and visit us for say three or four days

James Doran (26:57.356)

And then usually Fridays we would scout the school that was going to visit us next week, which would be based in Jing 'an. And that's generally how it worked. But I think with us, we were due to finish at the end of January. But I think by maybe the first week of January, we'd done every school in Jing 'an. So they basically said, we don't really have any work for you now. So...

rather than wait till the end of January, you can just start your holiday like now. So we're all like, okay, awesome. Yeah, was kind of like a, immerse immersive language learning then see the actor role play different scenarios. yeah, I mean, they did give us freedom to do what we wanted, you know, you know, in, in the, in the classrooms that we were assigned and, know, whether

like in my room different stuff to do with airports or the supermarket or the bank. I think though because they were trying to renew their contract, local government bureau, did the head office of the company I worked for, it was like a contractor, you know, for providing foreign teachers to schools throughout Shanghai. They did come up with like a more detailed curriculum. But when Chinese New Year happened, because what happened is

because our schedules were a lot more flexible than other teachers, because sometimes we wouldn't have that many classes to do on certain days. So we would be substitute teachers as well. And there's one school that I'd subbed out a very short notice, like three or four times. And they really liked me. So they requested that, you know, if I could be moved there for the next semester. So that's what happened from them. I believe that they...

After that they had like much more detailed kind of plans to follow rather than you know, you do your own thing But it but it was it was good though because like the classes were only like 35 minutes long And then so in terms of you know, that's such a work life and then you did a second kind of I guess it's a common in a different school How did you find it socially? So We we friends with a lot of teachers you're with did you do any kind of extracurricular sports or clubs or?

James Doran (29:21.806)

Did you find other people on online or how did you kind of spend your evenings and weekends socializing or, or traveling? Well, to be fair in a lot of my spare time at that time, I would do like teaching or tutoring on the side. so I do a lot of, you know, tutoring work at people's houses. and the going rate for that would be about 250 RMB an hour. so I mean, I mean, I was very busy back then. mean,

pretty much I'd be doing a combination of my working day and tutoring. I'd be working, you know, and if you include like working travel time, like 12 hours a day, six days a week. I don't have that one day to just rest and relax. But yeah, I mean, when I was at university, a guy who I became quite close to and we're still pretty good friends to this day. We found out that we could be going to Shanghai together, but he was going to Shanghai to study at a university in Shanghai.

So we met up a few times. said, my friend Mark, he moved to Chongqing. He came to visit a few times. And yeah, I'd say when I was in China, I tended to make more like Chinese friends rather than other foreigners. That's quite unusual because usually expats tend to hang around with expats. So you've done the thing which we all want to do, which is break into the local networks. But I guess you offered a quite good service for them by teaching them English. And then you got to have quite personal relationship.

by talking to them in the language or teaching them perhaps? Yeah, there was an element of that. To be fair, when I was in Guangzhou, when I moved to Guangzhou after Shanghai, I did spend most of my time, in terms of the social aspect with other foreigners, mainly American, because there weren't really many British people in Guangzhou. What was it like then, when you were there, once you got settled? What was it like?

like just doing life admin, like go into the supermarket, kind of doing all the things you need to do. How did you find that? Cause I think when I first went to the supermarket in Sweden, it took me two hours to the first shop. Cause I was trying to read everything, can check what was right. I bought the wrong bread cause I bought something completely different. So then you don't know anything when you're at home, you just know all the brands and you do without even thinking, don't you? So how was that?

James Doran (31:40.43)

Well, the very first thing that I to do when I moved into my flat is, cause when you, when you get apartments and housing in China from what I can gather, 99 % of the time they're fully furnished, which is good. but I didn't have any bedding. So the first thing I had to do was go to shop, buy some bedding. And at that time my Chinese language skills were like non -existent. So that, that was interesting as you can imagine, turning to the shop and looking around at bedding and asking staff and they're, they're kind of like.

customers and staff trying to help me find the stuff I needed through like, you know, like sign language and hand signals and all of that. But in the end, I got everything that I needed. In terms of stuff like groceries, that wasn't really that big a deal because I'd say like 95 % of the time I would eat out because eating out was quicker, it more convenient and usually it would end up cheaper.

than cooking at home. I did have cooking facilities in my apartment, but it was usually only if there was something that I really, really wanted to eat and I knew it was going to be either very difficult to find in Shanghai and or like really expensive. Otherwise, yeah, I didn't get that much stuff. It was mainly just water that I would say is like the main thing that I'd get and like, you know, washing powder and stuff like that. And also like,

My rent didn't include utilities, although the utilities would only end up being like 20 quid a month. I mean, most people probably spend that in three or four days in the UK now, like average utilities. But for me, it was about like 20 quid a month and I had to go to an office in the building where I lived to pay that. And they mainly just laughed at me the whole time because my Chinese was so bad then. So, it better now? Have you learned a lot of pinyin or?

yeah, yeah. I've carried on studying Chinese ever since. I did an exam in London about two months ago and I failed it. If I got one or two more questions right, I would have passed it. That was kind of frustrating, but also pretty good benchmark of where I'm at now. if I got one or two more and passed it, I would have got to like B1 in Mandarin. It's tough. I remember learning a little bit in my job because we got

James Doran (34:07.566)

giving like opinion support because we were working with, well, we working for a Chinese company and working with lot of Chinese people in meetings at 6 a as they were going to bed. We were starting our day, so we would have a lot meetings together and just have lot of curiosity. But it was so hard to actually read the characters. So I got the opinion keyboards where you can like write out and things and it would change it to the... That's how I learned to do characters.

Because the first year for me it was was pinyin. But the thing is I was in it because also this was the first time I was ever in a place where English was not like a known language because you know it's like you go to most kind of touristy places and people can most people can understand some English in Shanghai unless you went to like a really high -end restaurant or hotel. Almost no one can speak English so I was put in a situation where I kind of had to learn.

just to make day -to -day life much easier and things like that. The immersion worked for you then? very much so, yeah. I mean, I did have classes as well. And again, my teacher at that time, we still kept in touch ever since. fact, she's coming to London later this year with her son and we said that we'll meet up when she's here. Very nice. Things like that. I mean, she could speak English perfectly. And that was her job was teaching.

foreigners, Chinese, freelance and that kind of thing. But yeah, for me the immersion definitely worked. I remember just being so frustrated when I was there that like everything was really difficult and I couldn't understand even like the most basic of things. know, so I just thought there's no other reason just to make my life here much easier. Need to learn it. Definitely, definitely. It's... we're always privileged in...

English speaking languages to that the international language is generally English so people do either they want to either though English is the first language and they want to practice it or They just know it so well so as the Sweden they have a higher English it's you right and the Indian do I think you know the English is impeccable

James Doran (36:22.754)

which meant that my learning Swedish, if I was struggling, they just switched to English. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, Like, you know, want to practice my Swedish. It was difficult for sure. I didn't need to immerse myself because my office was all English based and things like that. But I think it seems like you needed it more in China for sure, which was unfortunate, I guess. Well, fortunate and unfortunate because it meant the days where it's tough. It's really tough because you

might be tired and when you're tired of thinking of a language, very difficult. And you want the comfort of being able to just to not have to do anything subconsciously. And if you can't go and read the road signs or the subway signs or whatever, it becomes an extra cognitive process you have to go through, which just compiles that massively. wouldn't say I ever felt that way to me because one of the things that I love about it so much is it just felt like I was constantly having an adventure. I mean, even

Even stuff like just going down to the shop that was next to my apartment to get some water in a way felt exciting. I guess because of that element of it just made everything a lot more fun. And indeed I found that I was able to connect with people a lot better once I spoke. Once they realized that, especially further down the and definitely now that I can speak some Mandarin and things like that. mean, even to this day, like, if I go to a...

Chinese restaurants or if I'm talking with someone and I find out that they're Chinese, I'll switch to Chinese and it's always like, you know, it opens up a completely, you know, new world right there. People have different personalities, different languages, right? So you actually get to understand people's personalities in their own language or in other languages, depending on how they've learned it. People can be quite reserved in English, it's not the first language because they know how to express themselves.

Well, is he right? If they could speak in Mandarin or in language, which is your first choice, and you can understand it, then you can understand someone's personality a lot more, which is quite interesting, I think, as well. Out of curiosity, did you go to Chinese New Year in Liverpool since moving back? Because it's meant to be one of the best in the country. No, I haven't. mean, I'd say that's one thing that that was a big misconception that I did have about China when I was there, because my mom came to visit me around the time of Chinese New Year. But what happens in Shanghai?

James Doran (38:42.766)

is because about maybe, I don't know the exact percentage, but quite a lot of people in Shanghai, let's just say about 40 % of people don't live or are not Chinese and they come from other places. So what happens is they all leave and go home. So during Chinese New Year, Shanghai felt like a ghost town in comparison to normal times. Like there was a lot less people, a lot of businesses were shut and there was

kind of a bit underwhelming compared to what I thought it was going to be. Maybe if I'd gone to a small place where a lot of people are coming back, then maybe would have been different. But yeah, there wasn't any crazy celebrations and such. But I like that's kind of what happens in the bigger cities in China as everyone just goes home. And in your second location, where was that again? So I said I was going to teach middle school but I ended up teaching primary school. Which, don't get me wrong, I enjoyed it it was fun.

but I've kind of from the little exposure I'd had to teaching adults and stuff with tutoring, I found that I prefer that a lot more to children. So I, but also at the time I was looking into, like manufacturing physical products and obviously China is one of the best places you can do that. Cause part of like an online community that were about, you know, say, private labeling.

a product and then selling it en masse using Fulfill by Amazon or your own say website on Shopify and things like that. And of course the main manufacturing hub for a lot of that stuff was Guangdong province where Guangzhou is the capital so I okay I should probably move there. So I went on various websites, found a job at a university in Guangzhou, applied for it, got it.

left Shanghai so I had like a summer back home in the UK. Except that this ended up being a bit stressful because the thing with China is their policies and laws for things like say immigration are not consistent across the country so the certificate that I've used for teaching English to get me my Shanghai by work permit was not accepted in Guangzhou.

James Doran (41:02.956)

So I had to do the process all over again. And there's quite a lot of uncertainty about whether I was going to get this done in time or not, but I did. Yeah, so I think I came over initially on a tourist visa to Guangzhou for like a week. And then when my paperwork was ready, I went to Hong Kong to replace my visa with the work visa. Again, I don't think you'd be able to do that now.

know, because they were lot strict about all that kind of stuff back then. wasn't really a big deal. but then, yeah, once there, I, you know, got a job at a university in Guangzhou. was university life, in China like when you experienced it, did you, did you find it interesting to, to kind of observe, student culture compared to UK or Europe? It's, it's very different to here because, one of the best examples I can give of this was the first week,

was Tuesday morning I was teaching a freshman class, you know first year students, and I go to the classroom and there's no one there. So then I call someone from like the admin department who was in effect my boss, I was like hi I'm here but there's no students here like and I'm 99 % certain I've been to the right room and then she's like yeah we forgot to tell you this when university students start in China for the first

two, three weeks they do like military drills and then I look outside like onto the big sports field and sure enough there's a load of students in military uniform doing various drills but yeah okay because that's actually one thing that did annoy me about China was stuff like that is say if there was something that they knew was gonna happen like that they won't really tell you until it's the last minute yeah yeah either very last minute or after it's already happened and like

But you knew this, why didn't you tell me? You can automate it now, send the calendar invite out or something. Yeah. You know, that was one thing that shocked. Also, like, you know you go to university in the UK and very, usually very few people who are from that town will go to a university in that town. Like, I remember one of my classes at Lancaster was in like the massive lecture theatre that they had where there was like maybe two or three hundred students or whatever all doing.

James Doran (43:25.614)

an economics class. think the guy, the lecturer said, yeah, how many people here are actually from Lancaster? And I think maybe one or two people put their hand up. in China, it's quite different because almost all of my students, would say like 90 % of them were from Guangdong province itself. Because apparently in China, when you're from a particular province, it's easier for you to go to a university in that province.

you'd say in -state and out -of -state. He's paid different prices, I believe. I wouldn't know about the American system specifically, but I believe that that was how it worked in China. If you're from Guangdong province, it was much easier for you to go to university in Guangdong province than in another province. I went to Liverpool, so I couldn't go very far. But I lived in town, which is quite nice, and then I could go home for food.

Yeah, that sounds like quite a good arrangement to be fair. because Lancaster's not that far either, because it's about an hour and a bit away. Well, that was one of the reasons why it was a good choice, because I want to live away, but not too far away from home either. So it was a happy meeting, because it took about an hour together. So in terms of the students, so I said most of them were from Guangdong. Now, the other thing is, I don't know what it was like for you, but you go to

a class in university and there'll be people doing all kinds of different degrees and modules and all of that and they'll end up in the same class. In China basically the class just stick together the entire time but they're all doing the same degree and they all do the same class, there's the same everything. So on campus there was a building where teachers lived and I think the top three, two or three floors were for the foreign teachers and then there was other

buildings where the students lived. So they lived in dorms so I think like four of them would share a room together in bunk beds and have their own bathroom and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah so you know like a lot of them became quite good friends and stuff like that and also I don't know what was like with other subjects but English was a very feminine subject because I'd say in all of my classes at least.

James Doran (45:43.657)

90 % of my students were girls. It was another thing that I noticed. Yeah. Quite, quite, quite more mixed because of the kind of business culture in China and our English is so important to the business world. I thought there might be more mixed, some for the language aspect and some for the career aspect. I thought it might be a bit of a difference, but - That's what I thought it was going to be like, but no, at least for me, it was like 90 % girls. In fact,

I'm asking my friend Mark that because he'd worked in university in Chongqing. Yeah, prior to me, it's like, yeah, all my students are girls. Was that like the case for you? And he's like, yeah. then so you obviously you moved to university and how long were there again for? Just over six months. Yeah. So I moved there in September, like beginning of September 2015 and left at the end of March 2016. yeah, nearly seven months I was there.

I mean, but the arrangement was quite different to Shanghai because my pay was less than in Shanghai, but I had housing provided, bills paid for, they had a cafeteria on campus and if I was being very extravagant I maybe would have spent like two quid on food like a day, sometimes a lot less than that. mean, don't get wrong, it wasn't the best food in the world, but you know, it was fine. It was a little profit, basically.

the way my contract worked it was like an annualized hours kind of contract. The timing of when I got ill was quite unfortunate because I remember we got to the next semester and I think my boss had said to me and the other foreign teachers you actually did almost all of your quota like in the last semester so in the second semester or something like I did one class in Thursday morning and Thursday afternoon so the class would be

45 minutes, 15 minute break and then 45 minutes again. So hour and a half. And then another class on Friday morning. And that was it with the same pay. Cause I think if I went over the limit, they had to pay like 20 quid for every hour or something that did over it. said, so rather than that, we'll just give you like virtually no work and you'll get the same pay. And in fact, I think one of my colleagues at the time, I think he just went on a trip every week cause it was like a

James Doran (48:05.581)

five day weekend. Obviously you mentioned it before, but unfortunately you fell ill whilst you were out there in China. And how did that kind of manifest itself? Was it quite sudden? was it, was the signs going to show you when you were getting sick or was it just the next day? So what happened is I remember it was Thursday, it was Thursday, the 10th of March, 2016. I woke up cause I'd, you know, classes that day. And I remember feeling

a ill. Not like enough that I was going to call in sick or anything like that, but just felt quite rough, you know, kind of thing, you know, like an off day, as it were. So I went and did my classes, went home, went to bed, and then throughout the night, you know, was vomiting all night and all the other stuff happens. I called my boss the next morning, he's like, yeah, I'm sick. So I'll, you know.

need to cancel class this morning and I think the usual arrangement was you know if you if you were sick for classes you just do the class again but like another time when you're well. So called in sick and I felt just generally run down and really ill but one thing that I do remember thinking or noticing but it wasn't something that concerned me that much was my legs felt

like a bit numb and weak, which I just dismissed as... Ateagin stuff, yeah. Yeah, so this isn't really gonna be a thing. So I start to feel better at everything else, but the numbness and the weakness gets much worse as the days go on. Now, I don't really remember why, but I was just ignoring it and being stupid. That's Ateagin to you, suppose, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, and I remember...

When I finally came to my senses, I was going to a football match in Guangzhou, because Guangzhou, Evergrande at the time, they'd won the league, I think they won the league like seven, eight years in a row. So I had a season ticket that one of my students held me by and they were playing in the Asian Champions League. So I went to the, go to the game. At this point, I can barely walk, you know, and I'm sort of like struggling everywhere and stuff. Then of course, I to the stadium after climb steps. I'm like, God.

James Doran (50:29.598)

You know, and then like it pretty much collapsed on the stairs and these security guards like carry me to the top. Now, one of my students who I was also friends with, he was in the stadium and I was like, yeah, I'm kind of stuck here. Can you help me get a taxi? So then he came and found me and got a taxi back home. Barely made it back into my apartment. Went to bed and then I was like, okay, I'm very sick. Something's really, really wrong here. So I my boss the next day and

I can like barely feel my legs and I can't like walk right at all really. So I said, okay, we'll take you to the hospital. So we went to, went to a hospital in the center of Shanghai and at first they thought it was some sort of like spinal issue and stuff like that. And obviously, you know, back home, her parents were quite worried and all that about, you know, what was going on as the days went by, it got worse because they said, what we need to do is we need to do an MRI.

to find out what's wrong. And so I was kind of just held there in the hospital for a few days and nothing was really happening. It was pretty boring to be honest. And, you know, having some treatment got capitalized, which was a lot of fun as you can imagine. Yeah. So then like it gets to the point where like I can't feel my legs anymore. And I think the only thing I could do was move my left foot from side to side a little bit. So then the doctors are like, okay, we need to do the MRI now.

So then they did the MRI and they said, you've got like, mean, cause obviously I, you know, I'm not a radiographer. I, you know, don't really understand what I'm looking at. They said the whole of your spine's inflamed. I was like, okay. So like, so, but, but, we don't know what it is that's wrong with you. But they said we need to give you intravenous steroids to calm it down. And then of course this is where all the problems happen because

up to this point, cause, cause, you know, healthcare is not, not socialized in China, like it is in the UK or most other developed countries, basically like for profit and you pay kind of thing. And I was supposed to have insurance with my job and indeed my boss said, yeah, we have insurance for you, but what'll happen is you pay for your treatment and if you run out of money, then we'll pay and then we'll reclaim it from the insurance policy. And it's when I need this treatment, which costs about

James Doran (52:57.774)

12 ,000 RMB a day, it wasn't easy to think three or four days worth. So it was like 1200 quid a day. But my boss was like, yeah, the insurance isn't going to cover any of this. As you can imagine, I'm freaking out at this point. Usually the insurance covers it when it's more expensive than you expected it be. It's like, it's only the tenner. OK, yeah, it falls out your premium costs are higher than the cost of treatment. Usually, see the way around, it should help you with the more expensive stuff. I can talk about it quite candidly now, but this was like,

the most stressful and frankly terrifying nine days of my life at this point because basically it's like you need this treatment or you're gonna die but at same time if you can't get the money for it then we're gonna have to remove you from the hospital which to put it very morbidly you know would have meant being left to die wherever they were going to dump me. Surely the UK government should help you in that sense or the embassy or something or was that not possible to get in touch with them or?

I did get in touch with them. They just gave like fairly generic advice about needing, you know, a fit to fly letter. but they pretty much said that that wasn't really anything that they could do. then how long after the diagnosis or the incident did you then get home? so I was admitted to hospital on the 17th of March, 2016, had the MRI a few days later. can't remember the exact day.

I was discharged, or well I self -discharged myself from the hospital on the 26th of March 2016. Stayed in like my friend's apartment for the next night and then I flew home on the 27th of March. But I mean what happened in terms of the money side is I think I guess here I was fortunate that I was working for a government university that was trying to build connections all around the world and stuff like that and you know enhance like

you know, exchange programs and that kind of thing. So they have like quite a lot reputationally on the line here. If something happened to me, so basically my boss said, okay, we're going to pay for your treatment, but you have to pay us back. having basically no choice, I was like, okay, you know, so the, so my treatment, you know, was paid for and I had it and thankfully it worked a lot better than anyone, anyone could have hoped. mean, I was still basically paralyzed.

James Doran (55:23.67)

from the waist down but my upper body was fine and I had enough where if I supported myself a lot with my upper body I was semi -mobile although I just had a wheelchair. But I realized that this is going to cost a fortune and obviously my parents are freaking out. I remember thinking, okay, I've got to get back home. I cannot stay here because I'm not getting the care that...

I need. I'm very, very sick. And, you know, it's, it's just simply not, not an option to stay here. And I remember like my dad telling me that they'd been talking to countries about getting medical evacuation from China. And I think the lowest quote they had was like over a hundred grand or something. yeah, it was pretty stressful. Yeah. So a lot of money for one flight effectively or for one trip, which, know,

quite a setback for years worth of work, I and things. That's incredible. obviously you're okay now, which is good thing, or you're 99 % back. Yeah, because I didn't want to leave China. mean, you know, because when it first started, people kind of said, when I would have been able to, like, maybe you should go home for that. But I'm thinking, well, I'm really happy here. don't want to move. You know, because I was, you know, I had like a solid, like, friend group of, you know, American guys. We'd go eat out, like, every weekend.

You know, I really liked my job a lot. I developed a really good relationship with all my students and many of them I still talk to even this day. You know, was dating a girl at the time, you know, it was just everything was up until that point was going awesome for me. know, you were living your twenties out, right? that's the wonderful thing. But yeah, managed to make it back to the UK on the 27th. cause cause one of the things I'd said to the doctor is

I kind of explained to him and he was nice to be fair and he could speak English well I was like look I cannot continue treatment here I need to go home but one things I need from you is like a fit to fly letter and I was not fit to fly at all by any reasonable definition but he was like yeah okay so he just wrote me a letter in Chinese and in English saying I was fit to fly and you know when I got my ticket and showed it to the airport staff they like okay then they just got me you know wheelchair assistance for our Guangzhou

James Doran (57:44.504)

Hong Kong where I transited and then obviously once I arrived back in Manchester. The kind of journey back home then, did you kind of have your stuff still in China or how did you get it all back? How was that like? So what happened is one of my friends, his name was Carl, he's American, he came to visit me quite a few times in hospital and stuff. I went with him back to their apartment and basically just slept on their couch for the night. When I was going back to the UK they took my apartment key, or I gave it to them rather.

then they went to my apartment which is on the campus and I think they were directed by students to my apartment to get my stuff so they basically just crammed it all in the suitcase and backpacks and this that and the other. Only two things they couldn't take was obviously the key to the apartment because I didn't need it anymore and my work permit. Those two things had to be left behind but again I didn't need them at that point. So they went and got my things and on the afternoon of the night I was flying and then one of my students

came with me to the airport because we were quite good mates at that point. And one of my other mates arranged an Uber to get us to the airport. So you made some really good friends out there then and good environment for you two to have been in. It's quite lucky I suppose in that sense. If it wasn't for them, I'm not sure how else I would have made it back because obviously the money issue was quite a serious one at the time because my boss claimed that

she and some of her colleagues were funding my care, I don't know if that was true or not again, I was never shown any paperwork, I was just told how much my treatment was costing and how much they were paying so... But of course the problem was I was basically being watched like a hawk in the hospital by university staff and some students that they kind of dispatched there to keep me company and to talk to me but also kind of report back on what I was saying and what I was doing and all that.

And course they got wind that I was going to discharge myself, you know, so then my boss said, well, you owe us all this money, you know, all that. And we had a pretty intense argument for about four hours where she was like, well, she coerced me to sign an agreement that I was going to pay back. Albeit the agreement was written entirely in very complicated English. And I mean, what she'd done is she'd just gone onto the web and I got a template, know, some sort of agreement.

James Doran (01:00:08.578)

think but I remember thinking because she was starting to ask me like you know where's your passport and all that kind of stuff so I remember thinking okay if I don't sign this you're going to stop me from leaving China and this was a problem because all my stuff including my passport was in my apartment on the campus of the university you know so I thought so if I sign this you seem to think that you know you have like a cast -iron guarantee of getting the money back even though they

should have got insurance in the first place or at least told me that the insurance I had was basically worthless. And again, they just made up stuff. mean, I remember like when she was going through various things like, yeah, this injection is not covered because the needle that was used for the injection was not made in China. And, you know, as far as I was concerned, they were just making up reasons to not pay various things. did you end up going to pay it all back in the end? No, because like I said, I was, I was pretty sure.

once I was out of China there was nothing they could really do and sure enough that's really yeah well don't be wrong I was kind of anxious about the time but I remember thinking okay I can deal with this later I have to get out of China you know is the key thing and once I signed it like she backed off immediately I was like yeah okay because I thought because I think she thought she had some sort of like cast iron guarantee to get the money back then my friends went to the apartment and then I got a plane ticket away of Cafe Pacific

I flew from Guangzhou to Hong Kong, which is about 30 minutes, and then from Hong Kong to Manchester, which was like 14 hours. was tough, Yeah, it wasn't too bad. I mean, I just stayed in the seat the whole time and just tried to get some sleep. Just because of the circumstances, I maybe only slept like two hours a night for nearly two weeks.

I think they did have Star Wars on the movie Force Awakens. think I just watched that. When I awake on the plane. Yeah. I thought that was one good thing about the journey. in terms of the money, because I remember thinking, I'm pretty sure that, I mean, first of all, the circumstances are incredibly dodgy anyway, you know, is the first thing. But also, like, you know, because you're going into the realms of like international law and, you know, jurisdictions and

James Doran (01:02:25.358)

all that kind of stuff and thinking it's probably not going to be possible for them to do anything or if it is it'll cost an absolute fortune and well more. I mean just for clarity the total amount by treatment I think was around 55 ,000 RMB so five and a half thousand pounds and all of my money had been basically used for treatment which was I think at the time as well maybe a thousand pounds and I think they said the insurance paid out like fifteen

thousand rmb or something like that. But what was funny is my boss didn't get in touch with me for a long time until I got back to it, it was like two months later or so. Well I think in the intervening period my mum texted my boss on WeChat to say yeah John's in hospital, he's very sick, he can't talk to them or whatever. Then two months later she comes back and then the amount that she was claiming mysteriously dropped substantially from

I said 55 ,000 RMB to I think it was like just over 20 ,000 RMB. It's like okay, right. So two things have happened here. potentially two things happened. One is that you were lying about what it was to begin with because again, I never saw any paperwork, you know, so I, you know, I never knew what it was or she's realized that she hasn't a hope in hell of getting any money and that if it's lowered or if it's reduced the

that I would be like, okay, I'll just pay it. I I wasn't going to pay it simply out of principle, but also I was completely broke at the time and had no money and no sources of income. And at end of the day, the payments that they were asking for were more than what my salary was, even though I had no money and they knew that. But they were willing to compromise and they sent a few angry emails and that was the end of them, more or less. So what are the bricked ends?

everyone I'm sure for you at the time but all I'm to hear that it's kind of eased out now and you've landed on your feet for lack of a better expression I suppose now you've kind of recovered in more ways than once professionally, physically and I'm sure psychologically after that quite a stressful time. Yeah, yeah it wasn't the best I mean when I got out to the UK I was

James Doran (01:04:51.818)

Yeah, went to hospital more or less right away and was in hospital for like six, seven weeks. Discharged and then I like had a relapse again where like my left arm went funny like I couldn't. So have you got back to a full quality of life then and things? you able to do exercise and stuff or is that still quite this cool? I mean, there's a few things that I kind of need to adapt to and stuff and just be mindful of. But day to day now, it doesn't affect me much.

Is there anything more you wish to discuss about your life living abroad before we go into the next section?

James Doran (01:05:33.774)

So welcome back to the podcast, Film Station 3, which John is kind of reviewing your time. I guess the first question I ask my guests is, you can go back to when you were about to leave for your experience abroad and you could either give yourself a bit of advice or change something. What might it be that you would tell yourself or would you avoid potentially whilst you were away? I would have made a bigger effort to learn Chinese more before I went because

bit like I said earlier, I just assumed that China was going to be like most places and that most people would speak English reasonably well. So definitely focus a lot more on the language. also just enjoy it and try to focus way less on the admin of life. For example, before I went to China, I researched banks and stuff like that.

that would have connections to the UK and I saw that they had HSBC in China so I went through quite a bit of hassle at the time to open up a HSBC account in the UK. Only to find out once I went to China that I didn't get to pick my bank account, the company did and that was completely pointless. Because I just assumed that for sending money home, if I had a HSBC account in China it would much easier to send it back to a UK HSBC account.

your IBAD numbers coming forward and stuff and your bit, is it bit or back? Yeah, and as I said in the end, I realised that all that exercise was completely pointless. Also, obviously in hindsight, and again, for anyone who's watching who is thinking about teaching English in a country like China and even knows someone that's teaching English in China, I thought I was dead unlucky. The insurance policy that the university bought for me was a load of

crap. But then I realised this is the norm. what it seems that they do is that I think by law they have to get you insurance but they get you like the bare minimum. The brass level. Yeah. Which trust me isn't worth having. definitely get insurance before you go. mean obviously you can get like private medical insurance but that's probably quite expensive. But I do believe that there are

James Doran (01:07:52.8)

like say long -term travel insurance policies or policies that are more designed for something like teaching English in China. know there's like no money. I've heard of that one, yeah. Yeah, so maybe that might work for you guys in teaching Chinese or teaching English in China or abroad. But all depends on like, know, to stay in the country might be the limiting factor on that, I'm not too sure. Yeah, and your circumstances, but I would say yet, do not rely on your

on employment. mean, you know, just don't be wrong until that point, I had a fantastic relationship, you know, with everyone in university I got on with, like everybody, you know, most of my students were awesome, you know, but they'd, if you like, cheaped out massively on this quite important detail. And, you know, it ended up causing a lot of stress for me and a lot of, you know, hassle for them that otherwise wasn't necessary. so yeah, definitely would have got, you know,

proper insurance policy before going out for sure.

when you had those chances. I don't regret it so much because I think one day I'll get the chance to go back and go to those places, but it would have been a lot easier at the time if I'd just done it. yeah, just enjoy being there and make the most of all the opportunities to travel around and things like that is what I would have told myself in addition to making an effort to learn the language and having proper insurance in place.

Yeah, it's a very good point. But also, guess you were building relationships in Shanghai through your work or through the time you spent tutoring as well as the job you were doing. So it's kind of thing where if you'd have gone traveling more, you would have not spent as much time where you were living and seeing all the amazing things on your doorstep. there's not enough time in the day to do both. Yeah, it's it's ways around the roundabouts. you know, I mean, I'm the kind of person where I'm quite happy to be, you know, social.

James Doran (01:10:11.198)

or, but I'm also just as happy as doing like my own thing by myself. See, but yeah, as you say, either way, would have been like different things that which would have changed if I'd done things differently anyway, sir. But what advice would you give to people who were to move anywhere in the world then perhaps maybe not China and any of the work? Would you say to someone apart from maybe learn the language or get insurance, anything else you can think about? Be open -minded and accept that they probably do.

things quite differently to the way that you're used to and to just accept that and roll with the punches as it were. As I said one things that did my head in in China was them like not telling you stuff that was quite important until the last minute so sometimes I would just ask you know you know these these things so that I would know in advance where where possible about things that were going to happen and things like that but

I'd say that's the main thing, be open minded and accept that, especially if you go to somewhere like China or somewhere that's quite far away from the UK, the way they do things will be quite different to what you're to and just embrace it. Yeah, it's a very, very valuable bit of information. Is there anything else you wish to touch upon with your whole experience studying abroad from manifesting it to begin with to...

tonight if you time to come back and reflect on it or you kind of tapped out on it now, do you plan to go anywhere else in the future for instance? Despite what happened, mean, you know, was the worst experience of my life, like the most, you know, stressful, you know, and pretty much like 2016 for me, like, you my life was a, you know, living nightmare, you know, for the most part. I suppose I was either going to go one way the other way, like, you know, would never go anything near.

like China again, you know, want nothing to do with the place anymore, you know. Yeah, but now I kept WeChat, kept in touch with most of my students and friends and whatnot. And, know, I mean, through civil service looked at going back to work there, you know, in a, like, UK, like, diplomatic kind of capacity.

James Doran (01:12:27.374)

I haven't been successful yet, but other opportunities make them up where I'll have the chance to do that. Would you consider any other countries other than China? Or is the language now in your favour that is? The language and experience is in my favour to the point where feel like, although, don't be wrong, are the places I'd be interested in going, that I'd be going back to square one, whereas I've advanced myself quite far. I suppose that's one of the things that I would, one piece of advice I'd give to people is...

I especially like the last 15 years or so we're kind of having it pushed on, you know, like side hustles and projects and all that and trying to be good at everything. And I would say what's much more effective is to find stuff that you like and that you're good at as well. I mean, I'm not saying this is easy obviously, but when you find that and especially if you can...

you know, find a way to make a career out of it or a living, then at that point become tunnel vision. You know, stop trying to be like really good. All things to all people. Yeah. Well, it's a bit like this quote that I remember that really stuck with me is, you know, trying to be everything for everyone, but end up being nothing for no one, something like that. You know, so once, I mean, cause I really, really liked learning Mandarin, you know, and I've carried on.

learning it on and off. mean, I've had like fairly long periods where I haven't studied it and then periods where I have. but it's always been there so that when I have started learning again, it's, been pretty easy for me to get back into, into the groove of the baseline. Yeah. Yeah. Well, amazing. Well, thank you for your time, John. really, really appreciate catching up. And, and what thing I know about doing this podcast is someone who I've like for yourself, I've known since I was what? 12, 11 or something. We've kind of known each other in school and, did a

target 2 .0 together in things. I knew you for economics and a few other things outside of school, but not so much on this kind of level. You delve into quite a deep thing about someone's life. One of my good friends from uni, he's from South Africa, I did a podcast with him and I learned so much about his life before I knew him because my life started with him once he'd already moved. I didn't need to ask those questions. I was probably selfish and ignorant, but it's really...

James Doran (01:14:52.554)

interesting to have that kind of deeper connection with someone about their life. I think you get to a lot of important things which get discussed. And yeah, it's good to see that you're thriving now and that you have opportunities to relive your life abroad in the future potentially. yeah, I wish you all the best. But just thank you for spending time with me and sharing your story. Yeah, thanks very much for giving me the opportunity to talk today.

always Yeah. And if you bought me to show you a social media or anything, I can put in the show notes for people to go and find you and then get in touch with you. Yeah, yeah, that's fine. Cool. Right. Well, as always, if you did enjoy the podcast, and you do want to find out a bit more than pleased to give us a follow, give us a subscribe, all that fun stuff you see, and we'll see you next time for the X -Pet Pod.