E062 - Finding Community in a New Country

James Doran (00:06.126)

So hello, welcome to the Expat Pod. My name is James, your host, and today I'm joined by Laura. And Laura, you and I met, worked at Polestar together, which I think was quite some time ago now for both of us, I imagine. So it's great that we're still in contact and you've agreed to be my guest on this podcast and show about your journey of living abroad and moving. If you would please give an introduction to yourself, where you're from, where you've lived and what you do. Absolutely. Well, hey, thank you so much for

having me and yeah, I think we're both in different countries now than we were when we were working there. I'm Laura Gisler. I'm a US patent attorney. I'm, they have like a technical background and then I'm also a lawyer. I'm from the US. I lived there until maybe like eight years ago. And then from there I moved to Sweden and then I lived there for about three and a half years. And now I'm in Copenhagen, actually in my

dining room in Copenhagen, where it's been for about two and a half years, almost three. That's incredible. Which part of the US are you from? Such a big place, right? Every state has its own kind of culture in itself. Totally. It can mean a lot. So I'm from Minnesota, which is actually when I moved to Sweden, a lot of people asking if I had Swedish roots. I don't have some Swiss roots, some German ones, some other ones. A bit of a mess, but

yeah, it's a, it's a Northern state. It's in the Midwest. Some might consider it a flyover state, but, Prince considered it his favorite state and Bob Dylan's from there. I don't, we have a few other things too. We've got some great nature. mighty ducks, the Mall of America. Yeah, we got more. Exactly. Exactly. So it's cold. we'll actually get, we get all four seasons.

really beautifully, which I think is something I grew up with and I really enjoy. The change of the season, winter gets cold, cold, summer gets hot, hot, and then everything else in between. Yeah. And what else about Minnesota? It was a, I grew up in a small town there. was a great place to be from. And the Midwest, better than you'd think, better than you'd think. It's usually how I think.

James Doran (02:33.186)

Yeah, exactly. I don't think it's been like officially endorsed by the state, but I'm I'm putting for it. But I think I have like friends in New York. And I remember there was like a big storm in down in Missouri, which is like another Midwest, but like southern Midwest state. And I had several of them reach out to see if I was OK, you know, and I was like, that is it's another end state in the Midwest. Close enough.

We're good. So I think we're still getting Minnesota on the map that has a lot to recommend itself, but still maybe one of the lesser known United States. Wonderful. I'm sure we'll unpack more about your journey in the following section.

James Doran (03:25.396)

Welcome back the podcast, Welcome to Section 1, all about getting there. Laura, this is where I get my guests' insight into how more importantly, why they wanted to live abroad and then how they managed to manifest it. Let's get back to before you left for Europe and Sweden and you're in the US. Why did you want to live abroad? What was the of news for you to travel? What a great question. Yes.

A few things I would say. Firstly, I traveled on my own a bit between grad school and law school. And I really, I really liked it. I think since I was really small, I've always been one of those people who's very curious and very interested in the world around me. And I, I like art, I like geography, I like nature, I like other people. And so I think once I traveled a bit, I liked the touristy travel, but once I did some kind of backpacking stuff, things I felt like were more.

of an adventure like back then, there were smartphones, but I would travel kind of without one and just kind of land in a place and have to figure out what was up and meet as many people as I could. I really liked that. And so then when I was in law school, also I did some stuff at the UN and I was interested in international law and I wasn't sure exactly how that might play out, but kind of...

took some classes in that area and talked to some people and explored some of those routes. And then I ended up working out of law school at IBM and I was working on some really interesting technology. I knew I wanted to develop in a different direction. I kind of saw the path ahead of me that was, if everything went well, it was more or less predictable and also pretty good. At that point, it felt like, okay, I'd worked pretty hard and set myself up for something that was really nice.

I should say I worked hard and also had a lot of, you know, privilege and support because there are plenty of people who work hard. Okay. But I worked hard and I was like, okay, cool. This looks great. But I started, you know, I think I just felt like at the time I was 29, I think, and I was thinking, you know, if I don't do this like soon and like actively start moving in this direction, I'm not sure that I ever will because

James Doran (05:45.206)

I think I have a tendency, like many people maybe, but to get comfortable. And I liked a lot of my relationships that I had there. anyways, all of that to say, I started looking around and I thought I was actually going to move to Seattle. I knew some folks out there. I was also doing some like community activist work and had a fellowship out in Seattle. And so I thought, Ooh, the stars are kind of aligning to move out.

to Seattle and then right around that time I actually heard from my now former boss at Volvo cars and he an American who had moved over to Gothenburg and he was building a team. There was already a team there but they were kind of trying to build it to be a little bit more tech focused and you know we went back and forth and at first I thought okay cool well you know I hadn't I hadn't been to Sweden I'd spent a lot of time in Switzerland and in the US it's kind of like Switzerland Sweden like

Same, same, maybe. Very different, turns out. But in my mind, I was thinking, Seattle, Sweden. Same, same. In some ways, I was, I'd been vegan for, at that point, like eight years, something like that. And so I thought, like the, like the food scene and like maybe the political scene could be like a really good fit. And then I went to Gothenburg and I really...

I really liked the team that I met. also really liked the potential Ray. Now my former boss who is the head of IP, Volvo cars, was somebody who's a really good manager. He was really good at developing people and was more or less in, in so many words, like, Hey, we're doing a lot of different things in the software space. And if you come over, you can kind of pick which ones you want to work on. And that for me, at that point in my career was like, okay, this is the combination of things of just like a lot of.

growth potential professionally. And not necessarily, I think I have very rarely been interested in climbing the corporate ladder, but more of growth potential of moving towards autonomy and freedom and also moving towards just learning more about new stuff and having increasing responsibility in areas that I wanted to learn.

James Doran (08:03.65)

I think that was kind of a bit long and rambly, but it was really the conversion of like a long time personal interests. Also just kind of a sense of always being up for an adventure and thinking like, okay, cool, let's check this out for, you know, a couple of years. think, yeah. then just like professionally, it seemed like it somehow could make sense. Yeah. So it was a big decision, especially moving, you know, on my own, I think was...

Yeah, was something that I thought about for a little bit, but honestly, I don't know how you are, but a lot of things in my life I can think through and I can logic through, but some things you just feel like, I guess I'm doing this. Okay. And then you just jump, I guess, you know, or, and by jump, mean pack up all of your things and move all the way across the world and sell your condo, but jump. Same thing. Yeah, exactly.

You say Jim, I say pack away your things and move it. Yeah. It's a bit more of a mouthful. Exactly. Tomato, tomato, right? You're British American, whatever. Yeah, completely. then when you, when you had that, so you decided to move and you found an opportunity to move to Germany, did they help you? Volvo help you with your relocation then from the US or was it all on your own kind of steam or was it handled quite nicely by them? It was handled.

pretty nicely by them. would say they were really great about it. And I should say, like, everybody in the department was so supportive and HR too, but I think the moving company, they were like on their end of the contract and they were renewing with another company and all of that. So it ended up being a little bit more involved than I had originally anticipated. For example, like my belongings, they, first of all, yes.

They handled it and that was amazing. In hindsight, when I talk to people who like applied for their visas without support, who managed all of those logistics on their own, I'm not sure that that's something I would have done. yeah, just because I'm not a huge, I love the details, but I'm not a huge logistics person. So I think having that support was essential.

James Doran (10:28.814)

for me in that experience. That being said, it was like they were supposed to ship my, they shipped like part of your belongings by air. So you have them in a couple of weeks and then part of them by boat. I didn't ship that much furniture. I was like 29 and whatever, but there were some things and they ended up accidentally shipping my, like booking my flight. So I flew out before my things.

before the movers came to like pack my things. And so that was like a little bit like, oops, I'm not sure. Thankfully I had some people who could like be there. But then they accidentally put all of my belongings on the boat and then they accidentally like the boat went to like the wrong country or something. So I ended up having like two suitcases for my first, it was supposed to be for my first two weeks and it ended up being for my first like three and a half months or something like that. I, and at that point I was still very

like, I mean, I was flying, but I was still very eco conscious. So I was like, okay, can I, like, I need to buy a sweater, but like, I'm trying not to buy stuff and I know I already have stuff. So I like put myself in some sort of like small moral dilemma there. Got myself a sweater, got myself a jacket. Turns out fall in Sweden, you don't mess around with. But yeah, so there were just like little things like that that were, there were again, really small compared to other people's relocation. But also I think I just thought,

this will be great. And then you're just confronted with how you are without getting too dark, but alone in a foreign country, you know, and you like don't even have a toaster. So for example, anyways, but no, the relocation was really it was relatively smooth. That's good. And then kind of getting just kind of skipping forward in time then to your next move, before we kind of go to living there, moving from Sweden to

Denmark, albeit their neighbors is a nice bridge connecting them. What was the reason for that? What was the why you wanted to leave Sweden and go to Denmark? Bit more sudden perhaps? exactly. I heard it was more continental. actually, so it was actually probably even a more challenging decision than leaving the US. I got recruited down to a job here that I was really excited about.

James Doran (12:55.572)

And I had traveled quite a bit and I felt like Copenhagen was like the coolest city I could live in. felt like I thought I was going to live in New York for a little bit. And I remembered really backing away from that. think it's such a cool city to visit, but I'm so impacted by the environment that I'm around that I felt like, man, being a corporate attorney in New York city is just like too much like of this like intense energy for me.

And Copenhagen felt like a really nice taste of the like international, can get like food delivered anytime. There's cool art, really interesting art scene of like a lot of what was it just like two blocks I can walk during the International Documentary Film Festival and watch like

So really interesting stuff. I think that for me was the piece about big cities that I love, was just like the access to so many cultures and also just like so many cultures trying to coexist in some sense. But it also still felt like a little bit of like a calm, quiet, not a small town, but like a totally manageable Scandinavian city. And then also just so beautiful. so I think that combination I thought,

I know eventually I'm like more of a countryside type of person. And so I thought, you know what, if I'm going to do city life, like I think Copenhagen's the one. So, so I didn't know as much about Denmark. felt like I really was in love with Sweden, the country, but I thought the city of Copenhagen itself was just like, what a cool, again, like what a cool opportunity. think I, I think I have to do this at least for a couple of years, you know, and then

I think since they are so close, there's a lot of people who were working across borders and even at my firm now, they have a Stockholm office, but they also have folks in Malmo who are commuting across the bridge to be in the office. And I think post COVID, right? Or post the initial COVID shutdown, think depending on where you're at in the world, that can mean different things, but people are so much more open to a more remote or hybrid working situation. yeah, it's quite common, think.

James Doran (15:18.304)

Isn't it cheaper to live in Malmo but work in Copenhagen? that's yeah, exactly, exactly. Especially now with the fluctuation of the currencies, think it's those folks are winning for sure. I don't feel like I'm losing either though. So yeah, very happy to be where I'm at now. And then moving from Sweden to Denmark, did you need to get a different visa? Was the different processes? you got European citizenship or Swedish citizenship?

being there or have you not? Great question. No, that's like, I don't have too many regrets in life, but that's one that I'm like, I wonder if I should have, I was at like three and a half years. And I think at that time it was still like a pretty straightforward five years you're in. so, but no, I, I kind of went through the whole process again. Also the company handled that for me, which was great. So I feel like, kind of privileged saying that, but

I'm really good at a lot of challenges, logistical challenges or something that I just like, they cause me a lot of stress. So I, was just so, yeah, I just feel so lucky to have had that opportunity. So yeah, my last company, they moved me here and handle all of that, but it was, it was like kind of starting from scratch, like going back. I was in the U S for a bit and sending over, you know, all the pages of my passport applying from the beginning.

as though it was, yeah, it was just, it was just the same as moving from, the U S but then a little bit of, transfer when I was leaving Sweden, Sweden and Denmark talk a little bit. So there was quite a bit of ease between the, like them knowing where I was a tax resident now and my residence permit transferring and canceling and all of that. So my first year of taxes was less complex.

I think that would be like the main difference. But there for a while it was filing taxes in Sweden, Denmark and the US. that's those logistics I can handle. But it's like the whole work permit. envy with three taxes. I had to I still have Kivra on my phone and my mobile bank ID because I'm still expecting to have some issues with my bank in Sweden. I still have it. Only because of swish because I want to keep swish. Yeah.

James Doran (17:42.102)

I think it's worth it. then they have, I should say, they have like tax treaties and things, you know, so it's not like I'm paying full taxes in every country, but it's just like you're filing with them and there's so many, so many authorities keeping tabs on everything that happens in your life, which is probably far less for me than for many other people. But, but still, yeah, not something I'd fully considered. I knew it was written three different languages, so it's an extra complexity.

Especially since I only speak English. Not proud of that fact, but it's true. Lula, Svenska? Pita lita? Wait, no, that's Spanish. Yeah, isn't that great? Wonderful. And so I guess your personal number from Sweden helps in getting to Denmark in that sense. I think it was, sorry, I should clarify that. I think it was more that I didn't, there's a lot of like things you're supposed to do when you exit Sweden.

And I didn't have to do those because as soon as I registered for a Danish personal number, as soon as all of that paperwork came through, it automatically let the Swedish authorities know that I was out. Okay, perfect. Like a small thing, but I... Yeah, I take the wins where I can. Yeah. My driver's license. So I have a US driver's license. And then in Sweden, I had taken the exams and passed. And then because of...

COVID, they like had cut down all of the taking one of the whatever that last step, the driving test, all of those slots. And then you have to like take it between, you have to take your driving test and your written test within a certain number of months from each other. Anyways, I was like on the last step to getting my driver's license. We didn't before, and then I decided I was leaving it. So then I just like abandoned it. But then when I moved to Denmark, you can just trade in your US license for a Danish driver's license.

So I did that and that felt like a tiny life hack. Again, it sounds like so, I don't know, petty or like really shallow probably, but I think the like, and hopefully we'll get to it at some point, the like more like serious things about living abroad, I think I've really embraced and been open to and challenged by. But I think a lot of these like,

James Doran (20:07.342)

the like, again, I'm just gonna keep saying the logistical things, but like the things with all the different agencies everywhere, just, I am so glad when they go easily because I think it's just like, my, it's a lot. Yeah, well then you for finding the hack of, I'm sure your Danish license then works in Sweden. There we go. Exactly. Exactly. In all of Scandinavia. So I was like, did I win at this?

Trust the lawyer to find the loophole. Exactly. Thanks for that. Did you get your license when you were in Sweden? No, because you were there like a year. Also, my British one would have been fine. I checked because it's technically a European license. Even though breaks it, still... When I passed my test, it was the same part of the EU licensing thing. So when I said, I have this license, do need to give it in after a year? They said, no, you're fine. You just keep it. Okay.

I had my Swedish ID and my migration services card as well. So they knew who I was.

Yeah. There's only a few needed to kind of worry about or think of before you moved or shall we go into the kind of the token of the section, which is the being that. Let's get into the real stuff, please.

James Doran (21:39.758)

So welcome back to the podcast. So welcome to section two, all about being there. So Laura, this is where I kind of want to get your initial first impressions. So you've left the US, you've left the best country in the world, apparently, and you've moved to Sweden, which is one of the happiest countries in the world. So was that something you thought of before you moved, like you're going to Scandinavia, or this high-level metrics for life and things? Was that part of your opinion? then how did that actually

manifest yourself when you arrive? What were your first impressions or your kind of expectation versus reality? Great question. Great question. And I guess to answer it directly regarding the statistics and all of that, yeah, I had left that out. But that was another piece, I think, when I was talking just kind of high level about like what the path before me looked like. I knew I really liked working with

these really interesting things like at IBM I was getting to work with AI and that was back in 2014, back in the day. But before it was cool. Thanks for picking up on that. That's where I was going. And also like quantum computing and I was like this tech not so I was working with these super smart inventors. We had like aligned incentives for me to understand what they were talking about. But then also like me aggressively Googling everything in the background. And I think that I felt like

okay, I know I really wanna work on these like cutting edge technologies or just like with people who are chasing after these really either important or interesting challenges. And at the same time, what I experienced and I don't think it's a universal experience, but my experience and so my perspective at that time was in order to be a lawyer and get to work on those projects, you basically have to work all the time or never say no, you're always.

It's always a yes game. And while I understand that, felt a bit torn there, because I really liked a lot of the aspects of my job, but I also really like a lot of other things. And I think my work is very, up in my head. And I do yoga, and really like to be in nature and do these things that are a much slower pace. So the very roundabout way to say.

James Doran (24:02.658)

Yeah, I had really considered what I'd heard about Sweden, what I'd read about Sweden in terms of like work-life balance, the nature connection. I think also just as a woman, feels like there things were a bit more pro-woman or egalitarian or progressive from that perspective. Yeah, so that was definitely

a big factor of also, and also, like I said, I really am surrounded, or I really have influenced by the environment that I surround myself with. And so I felt like, you know what, also I could sense, you know, I hadn't accidentally landed in some of these highly competitive environments. think there's definitely something in me that's very excited by challenges. And I think that that sometimes can get mixed together with also competition and

whether it's competing with yourself yesterday or competing with whatever the bar was, you know, last year or wherever people have sat, think that's, that energy is still for me one that I've found to be motivating in the short term, but not really like a long-term driver. I really wanted to get back to this like intrinsic love of the work that I was doing or love of the challenging of my brain, like that experience.

if I'm getting really into like, what am I doing sitting at this computer trying to solve these like little crossword puzzles that we call patent applications or whatever at the time. So yes, moving to Sweden, that was a a huge piece, Scandinavia and then Sweden specifically. Also forest, I'm like obsessed with trees and I felt like the Swedish forest, man, not a lot that beats them. And then I got there and found out,

So now to answer the second part of your question, I got there and found out there are so many types of forest. Like I knew like coniferous versus deciduous, you know, or whatever in my mind, those are the ones like the green ones that stay green all the time and then the ones that change and have like beautiful fall leaf colors. But yeah, I got there and I found out there were so many. I remember I went one of my, maybe my first, one of my first two weeks, a friend had invited me over to

James Doran (26:25.838)

her house, was having like a little housewarming party. And I was asking her, like, hey, I really want to go on a hike tomorrow. Like, what's the best forest to go to? And like several people were like, well, what kind of forest do you want to go to? And I was like, I am, I'm other qualified to even be asking these questions. This is amazing. So what I found initially, first impression, I think I'm, generally a pretty open person. I, I, you know, I mentioned like, I only had my like,

three tank tops and a couple of t-shirts and like a couple of suiting items. So I was, despite being like physically underprepared for it in terms of like my belongings, I think emotionally I was really, you know, really excited about it. And also I landed in the very end of July, beginning of August. And like, is there anything better than a Swedish summer? I'm not sure. Like not that I found.

And I had really approached it, even though I'm yapping nonstop on this podcast, I actually am a very relatively introverted person. I said, like meditation and yoga and art. And most of that you can do with other people, but you're not really chatting. You're kind of sitting there quietly. But I was living in Minnesota and that was the state that I was from. I'd moved away for college, but then moved back.

I felt like it had been very organic for me to make friends and find friends. I was involved in a lot of activities back in the US. That's because I have a lot of interests. I jump around to a lot of interests, but I also have a few that are pretty consistent threads running through my life. And so I tend to find people in those areas. But moving to Sweden, I'd heard that

probably not gonna happen. It's really hard to make friends. And so I think I put a lot of energy those first six months into really getting out there and meeting people. Like I was on like meetups, I was going on hikes with people that I just met, like group hikes, things like that. And just, and actually showing up to things. I think I generally, for better or worse, you know, like I am not always a great show.

James Doran (28:49.678)

show her up for events. I love to dip in. I love to like pop by an event, but I very rarely am like, I'm going to be the person who's like, I'm the first one here. What do need? I'm bringing, like, what do they say? Bring in the ice. Like I'm the reliable one. I'm the one who's like, maybe going to make it to your party. You know, maybe not. But I really thought, you know what, why don't I try? I'd really thought about

I think were really intentional with my relationships just because I value them so much. think they're so important for my experience here as a human and for wellbeing and for all of these things. And I think that in the US I had a really strong foundations and so I could dip in and out of things and be kind of a flaky friend, but people knew who I was in my core and they knew that I was actually a pretty solid person.

I realized that I was meeting so many new people without any context for like the first time in at least a lot of my life. I went to a college, my, or yeah, university away from home, but my older sister was already there. And so then I felt like there was already some context, you know, and also you have, yeah, just the cultural context. And so I really wanted to be intentional about, yeah, cultivating these new relationships and showing up in this space a bit differently, but at least

maybe not so much differently, but more just intentionally communicating who I was and how I wanna be in different relationships. Anyways, you can probably tell him a bit about, I don't think I'm an over-thinker, but I like to be really intentional in my life. So I think that was something that I was surprised, almost delighted by, just how many really great people, even now, I...

met and had in my life from that time, I think has been one of the gifts and one of my biggest, I don't know, joys without sounding too cheesy. But of my time living there, I really love the country, but some of the people, man, some good folks. Thank you for the head to a lot of my questions, which is great. But I agree that I think you're actually on the same hiking group. Is it a WhatsApp group?

James Doran (31:09.39)

about Gothenburg and hiking in Gothenburg because I joined the meetup as well when I first moved because I was like I love outdoors, I love hiking, I joined on meetup that group and then also there was a few others for just going out to the pub which was good fun too but for me it was sport so I played volleyball that's how I made friends in Gothenburg because I've always played sports and team sport was a good way of making friends I couldn't do ice hockey because I can't skate

and I couldn't do curling because I can't stand it. But I tried it once and it was fun. But, I could do it and had done before. that was my intention away of making friends. know, most of them are Swedes and they all spoke Swedish. It was a good way of, you know, having a common thread to begin with and then building relationships from that. Having one common interest, which is a wonderful thing you mentioned with your kind of...

similarities in finding your interests like yoga or art or hiking and using that as your kind of icebreaker in that sense, which is great to have that opportunity. you playing sand or court volleyball? Both, beach and indoor. Yeah, so there's two teams in Gothenburg. So a guy from Polestar, actually, Marcio, who's a Brazilian guy, he got me to try out with him.

the two clubs in Gothenburg. So there's one, Goffier, which are in Lindholm and either one is quite as specific as the Gothenburg. And there's another one not far from, what's the word? Scam Scandinavian. yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, one's in the stadium. I always get them mixed up Scandinavian and Scandinavian. But yeah, so there's two clubs and then there's the beach, the beach space, in Gamblerstad, which is like the old, what literally means old.

old city. And we I went to both or all three and it was good fun. And then the hiking wise, you know, I went to have you ever been to masterland and Hydra masterland, island, beautiful place to go less trees than or but it's still so beautiful to go and visit. I took my drone there and I was taking pictures and videos. Yeah, I feel like that is such a like,

James Doran (33:32.79)

in my mind, like classic Swedish island experience. Right? You're like, is it technically the archipelago? It is, right? I know it's a little north. It's quite a far north. Yeah. It's not. Yeah, I don't know. I know it's a big sailing place sometime in the year as well. And Lisichin is also very beautiful. Man, that Swedish West Coast. I love it. think the worst tourist anywhere is always the best. Right? The West Coast, best coast. That's what they say.

I grew up in the North West of England, so that's why. So there you go, yeah. You've found out how to make friends in the country. How did you find the contrast between the winter and the summer? Because I was like you, I moved on the 3rd of August, having been there a few times in the winter before, not for any longevity and always in the outhouses, you know, and on a business trip it's nice, but not living there properly. How did you find the contrast from...

August to November or December? Yeah, extreme. think the first year I... You know, my boss had been there like eight months longer than me and he was like, take your vitamin B. So I did that and that helped a lot. I love, honestly, maybe an unpopular opinion, but I...

like I think I alluded to before when we didn't actually explicitly say I think I grew up like childhood, but also like professionally grew up in fairly competitive environments. And I think I tended towards that more of I just I like, I like to win. So it's like, if you put me in a competitive environment, like, let's figure this out. And so I think landing in

Sweetie, I love the summer as it started to get darker. It was like, okay, what's happening? And then it started getting more darker. You're like, this is really happening. And then really cold. And then really cold. But I'm from Minnesota, so a little warmer than what I'm used to. Normally it's like definitely wind chills. But right, the cold and the dark that lasts forever was definitely moved. But, and this is where the unpopular opinion comes in, I kind of liked it. I kind of liked it, especially my first year. I felt like...

James Doran (35:52.718)

I remember coming to the office and talking to people and be like, what's everybody up to tonight? And they were like, we're going to go home and then we're going to try to come back tomorrow. And I don't think people were struggling. was just like, this is what this, I felt like the expectations for the dark times were like, go home, light some candles, watch some shows. And Mike needs to read some books. I'm not great at watching shows.

It felt like also because I don't know if it was just like the people I was around or Sweden in general, it's hard to speak like broadly, but I felt like people were so much more in touch with the weather. And since the weather was so intense and extreme, it felt like it kind of created an atmosphere that was a bit more mellow. And I found that to be very

calm and relaxing. think it was almost like a really good counterbalance for where I was at in my life. And when the sun came out, of course, I was like, welcome back. I'm never doing that again. Joke's on me. I was going to be doing it a lot more. But yeah, really like the dreariness. Like, I love a like 15 candle situation, you know? So I'm like,

feel like what you're asking me to do is, yeah, like, just be chill, take like some rainy walks or some like cold rainy walks, but like bundle all the way up. And yeah, I kind of hibernated. I like went a little bit more into hibernation mode. And I kind of enjoyed it. So I like that. That being said, I went to California for I think three months in maybe the end of February or March on a work

And I think that was, I hadn't realized how much I'd missed the sun. Cause then when I was there, was, and I think I realized like never do Scandinavian winter without finding some way to escape for a little bit. Just to remind yourself that like there is sun in the world somewhere, you know, and it is shining. And it's just like, cause like I said, like I love a lot of experiences of life and I love so many feelings in life. I love feelings in general, but

James Doran (38:16.194)

and so I think like super sunny days. It's like so fun and I'm here for it, but also like rainy mellow days I'm also kind of like I've got a playlist for this. Yeah, you know, so There's a little playlist to everything though, because music's wonderful for every emotion, but I i'm like you I being british I like the rain a little bit but when it was just so dark I found it difficult. because I like to ruin the rain because I think it's quite well, merits to the therapeutic

because you kind of just feel like you're very much in the moment of why I'm wet, I'm cold and I'm tired. But you just, you run for three kilometers and you hit some kind of like euphoria where you feel amazing for another three kilometers, then you get hit with a little bit of pain. But it's that kind of feeling of that's how Swedish winter felt for me is, know, times were really tough because I'm quite a social person. Why, especially when I left, I was, you know,

reacting to COVID where I couldn't do anything. So I was going out as much as I can, experiencing it's life. I got to Sweden in the winter. I was like, no one's doing anything. Why? Don't want to something. Yeah, that's true. I'll bring it by myself and meditating is fine. But when it's seven days a week, I was like, no, can someone please do something? Right. We need to balance this out. That's true. Same. I'm like, I'm introverted, but usually it's because I'm around people all the time. So I'm like, I just need a moment here. But if I'm too many moments,

not the vibe. One, I love the running in the rain. Exactly. Like it's like in a like a certain like aliveness and like that like kind of brings you brings you present that I can really relate to. how I counted that was I did as many things as possible. went to watch the ice hockey as much as possible, or went to Lisa Bay to the markets. Yeah. to Stockholm to watch concerts. I went to watch 50 Cent.

know, in the Cure the week after, contrasting music tastes, but they're both concerts. that, That's true. think live music, I was also like part of a studio so I could go there and like be around people if I wanted to. And I think people were like around November, people started doing like Christmasy things. And I felt like I jumped in on a lot of those.

James Doran (40:37.55)

like activity. So maybe it was more of just like the sea. just went along with like the seasonal activities. It did feel challenging though. I do remember feeling that it was challenging when you had really busy days, when it was like, you need more of that like sun or like yang energy, you know, you need to be getting after it. And the sun is like nowhere to be seen. You haven't seen it for a while, except for when it's been like forever twilight, like the sun barely making it over the horizon, you know, for like

weeks at a time. And then it's like rain, sleep, yin, something like that. And you're supposed to like be on your like 8.30 call with like hept up energy in your corporate voice. And I think that part I did find challenging because it's like great, like Mellow's great for like solo work days or even just in the office if everyone's like kind of chilling. But I remember some really fast paced days.

Or we were doing some litigation. I remember I had to go to Paris and I would do this and this and this this and in the course of like the beginning of February in Sweden, you know, and you're just like, I need a few more candles and a nap right now. You know, like I do not. Well, I do not need any more. Breeze. Like, if you've even you've if napped, you'd miss you'd miss all the daylight. So it's over. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So I think it was like it was it brought its own unique set of

Like everything, challenges and opportunities. But I do think booking a flight or a train, a long train or driving somewhere with towards the sun. Going on to language and culture. So Swedish is not the most commonly known language globally. Before you moved, did you attempt to get a streak on Duolingo or did you try and the language by going to Ikea and reading the furniture? What was your kind of approach to it?

Gosh, you know, I'm afraid I went in a bit blind or maybe naive. I committed to moving and then basically it was like, they wanted me to start really soon. So it was like, pack everything up. Did I download Duolingo? For sure. Did I listen to some Swedish music? Yeah.

James Doran (42:58.754)

That was about the extent of it. But also with my relocation, I had a Swedish tutor. So I was like, you know what, let me just get there and I'll figure it out when I get there. That's unfortunately sometimes my approach to a lot of things actually is like, are we in okay place? Okay, well let's figure it out when we get there. Yeah, is the kitchen on fire? No, okay, that's not a problem. Okay, when you say it like that, you're not wrong. That's right. It's pretty close to that.

Also, like to I that's how I feel the same way as you. I like to live in the moment. It's like, I've stopped trying to like anticipate and prepare for things because I don't know what the heck is coming. You know? So it's like, let me pack my two little suitcases and see what happens. And then you're sliding on a shrimp sandwich, right? Which is quite a sweetest expression. Exactly. Exactly. Such a tough one, but you know, I'm here for it. Whatever. I appreciate it.

Appreciate a good cultural reference and expression. you actually pick up on much or was it mainly just like random conversational words you learned like log on or? So it wasn't great. It wasn't great. I started with the tutor and then I don't like to judge my past self, but I'm going to say stupidly, canceled my lessons because I was like, there's too much work. At that point, I was not aware of the fact that there is always

too much work. This is a standard in life. This is the way it goes. If there's not too much work, you're in trouble. And so I went to like three lessons and then just stopped going, which is in hindsight crazy. had a private tutor who was coming to the office to teach me. And I had said my number one goal of moving to Sweden is to learn Swedish. Things shifted again. Things shifted when I got there. But then I had some Swedish friends who were super patient with me.

And then for a couple years, I had a Swedish partner who had kids and parents who spoke almost only Swedish. So then when I would like spend a lot of time with them or spend like a weekend up at his parents house, I felt like by the end, I definitely understood it and was like a bit conversational. But I think it was really that like immersion piece and also the immersion without pressure.

James Doran (45:18.53)

I'm usually quite good at learning things. So I was like, I'll just like pick it up, you know? And I'd been there a few months and I'm like, sure that I'm picking it up. I'm not sure that I'm really progressing at all here. But I found that in these settings where I didn't feel this like pressure, I hadn't realized how like, and this is something I'm still kind of like unpacking for myself, but like I hadn't realized how.

like a little bit embarrassed and also a little bit ashamed, especially as an American coming into like another country and being like, English, right? We got this. I feel like that was just like, this is not the person I wanna be. And yet I didn't take the time. think I felt really, had it, it was hard for me to accept that like, wasn't, that it was gonna be challenging to learn, that it was gonna be really challenging to learn.

And I think that combination, then anytime I showed up to try to speak it, I just felt like very, like there was a lot of like self judgment going on. But then when I was in these spaces where people were just like living their Swedish life, you know, around me and like speaking in Swedish and like present and, but they would, you know, they would try to speak to me in English or like they were super sweet about it. I felt really included, but also sometimes it was like, you guys like.

just take it in Swedish, it's fine. Like I'm just gonna look out the window. I really appreciate the struggle, but like... I would find I'm talking to Swedes and like, I can't remember what the word is in English. Okay, what is it in Swedish? And it's probably the same word with an accent. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Like Wi-Fi. And you're like, okay, I'm tracking. Right. So you could totally track with the conversation. And I think in those environments and not something that I'm like, okay, for learning, for me, the most important piece is being

like relaxed, feeling calm and receptive to the information. And I think, so that's where I'm like, huh, what am I gonna do with that in the rest of my life? But I think that was, yeah, I still feel like pretty ashamed that I didn't learn Swedish. And at the same time, it was so nice to be in those spaces where people were, you felt both included, even if you were, you felt both included and also like you weren't causing like,

James Doran (47:43.212)

the whole room to adjust for you. Cause that's a special kind of, I'm not gonna say insecure, like cringe, I guess is what it doesn't feel, not insecure, but it's like, this is so nice of you. And I'm like, not sure if this is more embarrassing than having no eye, like in Danish, I feel like that's in my last, not this one, but my last office, I was the only non-Dane in the department. And so they would switch to English, but it would be like,

very much for me. then like, everyone would be that people were good in English, but you could tell that they were used to speaking it professionally, but not personally. And so then trying to like, share anything about feelings or anything basically kind of off script, they would, you could tell they'd be like wanting to go back to Danish or switch to Danish, but they were keeping it in English for me. And you're just like, this is a unique situation that I've never thought I'd find myself in any of that connecting for you.

No, can completely completely. It's yeah, really interesting. I think I found the same situations where I would be Trying to say Swedish words or a phrase in the office for instance with my Swedish colleagues But they were like, you're speaking Swedish. We thought you were speaking some English, but in a weird voice. I was like no, no, it's Like I'm trying to say like I want sorry go for some coffee or something. They're like I thought I didn't get it correct me and I'm like no just

Enjoy my attempt, please. Exactly. I mean, it's like, wait, am I? Did I somehow find a way to make this even more socially uncomfortable? Because here I am. Like, this is me trying and wow. Wow. hmm. Turns out be fluent in the country before you move. That's my new rule. Be fluent in the country before you move there. I'm not sure if that's possible, but I think that's where I stand. No, it's Swedish. mean, Spanish, possibly French, maybe.

Latin based languages because the more widely spoken Swedish would be tricky. Going on to Denmark then. So obviously you're living there now. And how is that compared? Obviously people might think they're very similar countries and they are quite similar, but obviously they have their own nuances. How have you found that? What's been different between the two countries for you and professionally and personally as well? Yeah, great question.

James Doran (50:09.366)

I think compared to the US, they're very similar to each other. think compared to each other, yeah, they're very different. For example, they both like, know, summer has arrived when the Swedish strawberries are out, right? And everyone's like celebrating them. It's the same in Denmark, but with Danish strawberries. The Danish strawberries are the best in the world. New potatoes, same thing. The Swedish new potatoes, let's go. Now it's summer, boil those up, put them down on them. Denmark, same thing. And I actually...

Once I said that to some former colleagues, was like, you guys, okay, you know that in Sweden, it's like the same thing but Swedish. And I got like, like, like really kind people blank stares. And I was like, okay, or okay, okay. And I realized that was probably like very culturally inept of me, but it was just wild to see like how similar some of these like, it felt like core

cultural celebratory things were. That being said, midsummer, very different. In Denmark, they're burning witches. In Sweden, they're like dancing around a pole. Yeah, a sunlight pole. There we go. Yep. Thanks for using. I was like, fertility symbol. I'm not sure where I go with this, but. I think that. So those are just like high level little like kind of silly things. But I think in terms of the work culture,

very different. think the Danish work culture is much closer to an American work culture, feels a bit more German in some ways, there's a lot more directness culturally and that really shows up in the work culture itself. And then in Sweden, I think Sweden, it was a big change for me. It's such a consensus-based culture and I thought

that really came through in the work environment too. And while that was initially probably a pretty big struggle for me, I felt like I was really forced to slow down in a lot of ways that I felt pretty frustrated by initially. I feel like it was actually one of, for me, one of the biggest areas of like growth and learning of like getting to notice eventually, notice that and be like, why do I feel like the way that

James Doran (52:37.79)

I learned that as like, is not just this is how you should do it, but like, this is the way to do it if you want to do it well, like this is equated with excellence. Why do I think that? And is that actually true? And according to like whose principles and whose values? I think I've really come to appreciate about the Swedish work culture. That being said, do I want to take any more meetings about meetings about meetings? Like, no, never my whole life, you know, but.

I can also really appreciate, and I think that was maybe hyperbole, but I think I really came to appreciate that difference in the work style. That being said, yeah, in Denmark, I think it felt it was a bit easier for me to navigate because it is a bit more direct and I had, especially as a woman who was in STEM and then in the law and in the patent space, at least in the US, there's like...

far fewer women than men. And so it had been a skill that I'd been working so hard to develop was how to communicate more directly. And then I felt like I landed in Sweden and it was like, like, no, like don't. And I shouldn't say it. We don't do confrontation is what they say. Not confrontation. Exactly. Exactly. And so I think there was a lot of, there was a lot of, it was so nice. I'm so grateful for the opportunity to now have explored like

how much nuance there is. think I was very still in some things, very black and white thinking. And now I see there are so many different ways of effectively communicating and connecting with people and also moving the ball forward. think that was something that was, yeah, really important. I think still will always be a question of moving the ball forward at what cost, or the ball forward at what cost. And I think that's always a really interesting

balance to see how different companies, different countries, different cultures play that out. Yeah, I think that's probably, probably enough talking about that. Any, any other questions or follow up questions? I feel like I mostly talked about work, but... No, I think, I think you've kind of touched on everything. You have to do other things as well. worry. It's not just work, but work is a big part of why people wouldn't move abroad. So why not?

James Doran (54:58.112)

work and it's it's important to think about especially with the differences of the countries you just said and how the cultures might differ and that might make someone's decision for them if they're expecting more of a you know relaxed environment Sweden many more is for work so you can down tools at four o'clock and go home you can have two feakers a day and not stand go home and you know no one will say anything because no one will confront you about it and there's a lot of unions so you can't get fired

You know, all that kind of stuff was, Denmark maybe more in lines with the rest of Europe and also the US in the sense of, you have to pull a shift in or you have to kind of, you know.

into the work. You do in Sweden too, but- And I think the work culture here, should say, I think it is still very Scandinavian though. is still like, if your kids are sick, your home, like people are properly taking their vacations, but they take like, you know, a couple of weeks, not like four to five weeks as it was in Sweden. And so I think, I was going to say one more thing about that. I think I feel more comfortable also speaking about the-

professional environments because I've found outside of work, think there are some maybe like, if we're painting with like a broad brush, some big cultural differences. But I think one thing I really liked about traveling and now I've really enjoyed about living in different countries is that like, feel that, I don't know, I think somebody said it, I don't think it's original to me, but it's like always ringing in my head that like,

People are people everywhere, you know? And I think that you can find so many different types of people and people who, like people in Sweden who felt really like constrained by a more like conformist culture, who felt really like they wished it was a lot more like social and vibrant and loud in ways that I think some foreigners feel that like maybe a little bit more reserved, right? You're not making eye contact with people in the street. On people who were...

James Doran (57:07.266)

from the Swedish, we're feeling like, I wish we were different, you know? And then I also have found people, yeah, like in the US who were maybe looking for something that was almost maybe more Swedish. And so I think it's so interesting how unique people are and also how similar in some ways, like we all kind of are, you know, no matter, even with such different cultural backgrounds and different life experiences. I think it's a great way of ending the kind of...

second section about being there we can go in to go about your review of your time and your next steps.

James Doran (57:47.374)

So welcome back to the podcast of World War 3, which is Laura, essentially a review of your time. the first question I always ask my guests is if you can go back to the week before you moved abroad and give yourself some advice. It doesn't have to be change this, change that, just maybe beam or something. I'm not going to give you any hints. But if you could give yourself some advice or some information, what might you tell yourself? Buckle in.

It's gonna be a lot more. It's gonna be a lot harder and a lot better than you could ever be thinking right now. guess the bookly end is a good analogy for Volvo as well because they can bend the seat belts. Love it. Love it. We open, we open- I calling you IP. Yeah, exactly. Favorite story. Favorite marketing story. It's a good one though. Honestly, I'd be, I'd be running that every day if were them.

But yeah, I think that I think I would absolutely do it all over again in a heartbeat. And I also think that if I had known how challenging it was going to be, how it was going to be one of those challenges that you will not, the person that you are when you start it will not make it to the end. that person will not, you need to become a different person in order to make it. And I think that if I had known

that I don't know if I would have at the time had the courage to do it. And so I'm so glad somehow that maybe I would have, hard to know, but I think I would absolutely do it again. And also, yeah, that I had no idea how much it was going to require of me, I think. I think that's the third point, when you're estimating the challenge is quite, because people just romanticise them moving abroad and tend to, you

nullify the it's gonna be hard you you give me homesick give me all this stuff people just tend to go yes but it's beautiful like midsummer or you can wear a flower crown or i can go to have you'll missed or you know a glove or something and you don't think of the the things so much because it's not nice right it's not nice things can be horrible you don't want to you want to suppress that thought yeah maybe maybe a little bit of that also i think

James Doran (01:00:14.786)

You know, didn't, because, and maybe everyone is like this, or maybe a certain type of person is like this, but I think I'm a really, a really open person in a lot of ways. And also very like, I don't know if it's proactive or enthusiastic or something, but when there are opportunities, I feel like I love to, like, I've always felt like, this world is so big and there's so much life.

that I want to live and like I only have how many years like we're going to need to I'm so glad that like FaceTime relativity we're figuring all that out. I might even not be linear like I need that because like there's enough life and so I think because of that like I would when this opportunity presented for all the reasons that I talked about it was like yes absolutely but then also every step along the way it's like I have like this is what I dreamt of.

you know, in so many ways. This was what I worked so hard for. And also I was like, got to travel so much for work and I was like speaking at conferences, which like, okay, who really cares? But also it was really, I felt like I got to see so many things and fit so much of life into that and meet so many interesting people. Cause like, like I said, like as being kind of introverted, like speaking at conferences is...

just the best because everyone else comes up and talks to you and you don't have to, like, they already know everything about you, you know, and then you just get to like, I meet them. So I just feel like there was so much that I never could have anticipated. And I had so many opportunities to like hike in so many different countries, you know, all of these things. And yeah, but at the same time, this other part of like, I am doing this. I think I've always had no problem spending time.

on my own, I think really rebuilding my own, internal support system in a way that I, hadn't really anticipated, I think, and, and reaching new, new depths of myself and being able to confront, confront just like even what I was talking about, like the different ways of being in a meeting, you know, but like, to, I think I was just talking to Ray about this, about like the different ways that you take your coffee, like the small things that the big things, but really

James Doran (01:02:37.356)

choosing and I think it was some of it was a choice. Some of it, of course, some of the challenges like forced upon you and you have to like show up to the tax office and like do all your the logistics that I was whining about. But I think a lot of them, I feel like I was presented with opportunities to consider. Is this is this how I want to keep thinking? Is this how I want to keep living my life? Is are there other ways of existing? Are there other ways of being? Are there other opinions that are just as valid? And I think

with, I was also working a lot in change management. And I think it's the same thing where it's like, at some point you have to sit and acknowledge that like the way you were thinking, the way you were doing something, the way that you were, your way of being, isn't like, isn't the best, there are better ways of doing it. There, I think I've always felt there were equal ways of doing it, but I think I really taking that in and integrating it on like a,

I don't know, spiritual level or soul level or something like that, I think is really transformative. And I think that's the piece that I found really, challenging, but really like the most, probably the most beneficial, even more than like the lovely photos that I've taken in the love, even, yeah, probably the relationships are number one, but then the second, like this opportunity to really grow as a person, I guess is.

if I had to distill it now that I've like talked all the way around it. Something about personal growth, like, maybe ego death or something like that. That's really, yeah, that I really had the opportunity, I think, to experience. think we all should go on that journey as well in that sense, because it's a good way of finding yourself and what really matters and what you want to take forward from it when you experience all the...

minute detail in how you're experiencing life and you go, I see I don't like that part of me. How can I improve it or eradicate it or, you know, make the version 2.0 or 3.0 or 10.0 in my case, the amount of times I've, you know, resold myself. How can I evolve every time and, you know, just appreciate myself, which can be very good. Exactly. Exactly. And I think I was sounding very like, I think maybe self-helpy, but I think it's more of like

James Doran (01:05:02.732)

that what you said, like version 10.0 and not necessarily that I'm like improving every time, but it's like, I feel like I'm finding more openness and more ways to connect with the world that I'm in. And I think the first couple of times it happens, you're like, well, this is like either really hard or really challenging or like low key existential crisis, right? But then by like take 10, it's like, this is life. This is we're like constant.

ever evolving entities, you know, and this and this is good. This is like a really, really positive thing. This is yeah, called being alive. I think not not being that it. Yeah. you can follow the Android method or you know, naming of versions like desserts like I said, lollipop James or next week's ice cream sandwich James. Yeah, that's the way forward. Okay, sign me up for that. I need to get on in on that Android game. But also

I like that. Yeah. Cause the number implies like a hierarchy, like, yeah. I'm going to put some thought. I'm going to be, I'm going to think about this one. I like it. like it. Is there anything else you want to talk about your time abroad or I will offer you the chance to talk about your own podcast. you wish. that's so nice. thank you. No, I think, you know, I think you asked a lot of really great questions and it's actually got me as you can hear.

thinking on camera, which is never a thing, but thinking a little bit and reflecting a little bit more is really great to kind of check in at this point of where I'm at with things, where things are at, because yeah, like so many of your guests, I think you get to experience so much in a somehow more compressed timeline, in a when living abroad or living in a new culture. Anyways, all that to say.

No, I think you covered it. And yeah, for my podcast, I'd love to give like a small plug for it. Thank you. just launched it. Really grateful and inspired by your work, but something I'd been thinking about for a long time, trying to, it's called Field Notes from Abroad and trying to speak through the lens of intellectual property, which is the world that I know really well. And I think a world that people outside of it are beginning to know a little bit better.

James Doran (01:07:26.35)

because it comes up in valuation stuff, it comes up with VC money, it comes up also if you get sued, it comes up with a lot of people in like small businesses, trademark kind of stuff. But I think it also is, I also want to use it as an opportunity to speak to things that I also am deeply passionate about outside of just like intellectually interested in, which is about more

like communicating across differences is what I'm calling it. think there it's, IP is really the intersection of like business, law and technology. And so there's so many opportunities. I see so many connections between the work we're doing there and the skills that are required there and the kind of skills that are required in like community change, community organization, like empathy building within a corporate space. Cause I think we're all, you know, we're all humans there too.

but also in the broader world as we are approaching or currently living in a climate crisis. And there are so many ever present issues that I think require humans to be able to connect. And so I don't think my podcast is changing the world in any significant way, but I do think it's my opportunity to also really share some conversations with some of these people that I think have been...

do that so well, either in the IP space or in other spaces, and also really somehow give me hope in a renewed capitalism or the future of capitalism or what we can do with these typing away at our computer jobs that can also somehow add value to the world outside of just shareholder value. Because of course, that's also part of IP. But yeah. So that's.

So that's what we're doing. That's what we're getting up to. Having some chat. No big deal. Wonderful. No, and you raised a good point about, you're not changing the world. No, but you're changing your own world. And you might be changing someone's world who's listening. That sounds so profound. just, yeah, no. But you are, you you might have an influence on someone who listens and you might inspire someone to go into the world of IP because of it. So you should be very proud of the work you're doing. It's great. And I'll put a link to it.

James Doran (01:09:51.406)

below some word this way. If you were to watch and listen to and find your work. So yeah, please do go in. Spend some time listening to the tones of Laura. Thank you so much, James. Appreciate that. Always. Yeah. And thank you for listening. Thank you for watching. You do watch YouTube or Spotify because it has a video now. And if you have enjoyed it, then please let your friends know and let them listen to it and follow it. And we'll see you next time for the Expat pod.